[GGAC] Baiken Guide: Read this first!

[youcanwonder]

Seems tatami hit box last a lot longer now...might just be me

[Shinjin]

Hello Baiken-forum. I haven´t been that active on the forums, but I have been playing the game. So I thought that I might as well give some of my thoughts on what’s new with ACPR Baiken. Feel free to ask questions!
 

6p and Youshijin:

With the added gatling combination 6p-6k, together with Youshijin being changed to a stand-alone move (623p), Baiken now has more options at the semi-close range poking game. Specifically, Baiken now has a reason to do 2k6p – as she can confirm 6p(2) into Youshijin for a tensionless combo, or at certain distances and hit states 6p(2)6k Youshijin or Tatami frc-combo. If the 2k6p is blocked, she can alternate between a) gatling into 6k, b) jump cancel (such as iad back jS for safety), or c) Suzuran into Baku (abare bait, as there is a gap between 6p and 6k).
 

Before Baiken could only score a reward from this situation if she used 2k5s, and the opponent was in crouching state and close enough for tatami to combo, or if she hit a standing opponent that was tall enough for 5s to combo into jD. And if you did 2k6p, you basically could only get any kind of damage from it by burning tons of tension on it, and it totally sucked on block.
 

Tatami:

Tatami has been tweaked so it is – in my opinion – a much better poking tool than before. The extended hitbox comes later than before, allowing it to affectively counter poke. It also seems that the extend hitbox (the second half of the attack) has a bigger vertical hitbox that takes some time to get used to (as the opposing player). As such, the move is slightly less risky on whiff – while a clever opponent can still find ways to punish the Baiken-player if used recklessly.
 

It can also be spaced in pressure strings so that only the later part of the hitbox actually hits the opponent, which gives you better properties and block while also punishing abare in certain situations.
 

FB-Tatami

FB-Tatami adds another long-distance poking tool that can threaten your opponent at ranges and situations where the slow-starting Kabari was your only choice before. In addition, it allows Baiken to score additional damage in situations where she couldn´t before. For example, in AC Baiken could only do 2k5s5hs on certain ranges on shorter characters, but now you can add a FB-Tatami if you deem it enough for a killing blow.
 

2h

2h could be used as a zoning-tool versus airborne opponents before, such as a Sol-player that was jumping about and spamming jHS, but gave you zero reward on hit. Now that 2h has an added vacuum effect, it all of a sudden becomes slightly more useful in the neutral game.
 

6p

The upper body invulnerability of 6p was nerfed. Baiken can no longer 6p through Slayers 2p. Although 6p still works wonders as an anti-air at the angle where it is best suited for it, it has a little bit less utility.

On the flip side, it has 20 frames untechable time. This allows for you to confirm into a bigger variety of combos, such as 6p(2) jD frc (burst proof), 6p(2) tatami (useful when catching an opponent in the corner), or Kabari (if you catch your opponent real deep, and want to switch sides (6p(2) Kabari – 6k2h, side switch, combo)).
 

Sakura

So the invulnerability frames are gone, but the speed has been improved to 11 frames. That is quick, real quick. As I like to incorporate quick counters as a part of my poking game, this change made me very happy. Dashing up, and blocking, is stronger than before in the neutral game. If effectively used, you can scare your opponent from poking – which allows you to dash in and throw more often.
 

On the defensive, I would recommend using Sakura more carefully, and only counter moves and strings that you know it would not get stuffed. For example, it’s much easier to block Sols 2d and punish it with a Sakura on reaction when compared with AC.  
 

Ouren

The hurt box of Baiken during Ouren has been severely nerfed. Together with the worse properties on block (can now be guarded crouching, is -15 on block, and has a vacuum effect even on block), using Ouren on the defense now is associated with much more risk. For example, in situations where you could use Ouren to escape from Dizzy’s okizeme, Baiken will now get counter hit in the air, where she before would graciously fly away from a Dizzy that was dashing at you.
 

Ouren frc, while being very swag, is mostly a gimmick. It can be used in certain matchups (such as Venom, Dizzy and Testament) to close the gap versus characters that want to summon options (such as ball summon, fish summon, tree summon) in a way that was not possible before. It might be something to throw in there in rare occasions, but it is easy to get caught in the act, while looking like a fool in the process. Oh, and it can be used to run away while being pressured, and as a means to punish Dizzy’s new D-ice spike (ouren frc jHS).
 

Baku

Baku is still a very good counter, although it is not safe on block anymore. When your opponents have begun thinking that Baiken is way easier to pressure now that Sakuras invulnerability frames are gone, that is when you strike with Baku that has strike invulnerability all the way up and until the hit. (Well it has one or two frames in the beginning of the startup without it… but whatever). On counter hit you can score damaging combos with meter, and on normal hit you get 2k5s(2s).
 

Mawarikomi

Mawarikomi is much slower than before, making its utility way worse. I only use it on rare occasions, hoping that the opponent won´t be used to seeing it anymore. The good thing is that it still has strike invulnerability up and until the frc.
 

Combos and Damage

While combos are more character, spacing and tension dependent than before; her new combo system is very rewarding if you put in the hours and learn all of the new combo parts – and there a lot of them. But I might give my thoughts on her new combo system on a later date. More generally speaking, Baiken does more damage now. For example, she can do touch of death-combos in the corner against parts of the cast (see upcoming combo movie by yours truly). But more importantly, she has more options than before, especially when she has meter.

 

Plus tons of gimmicks, but I’ll keep them to myself

[Hellmonkey]

Thanks for the great post Shinjin, definitely looking forward to the new video!

 

Have you played much with FB Tatami FRC?  I'm not yet sure what the best option is from a far 5H, perhaps suzuran sakura FRC could lead to better options.

[Shinjin]

Thanks for the great post Shinjin, definitely looking forward to the new video!

 

Have you played much with FB Tatami FRC?  I'm not yet sure what the best option is from a far 5H, perhaps suzuran sakura FRC could lead to better options.

 

Thanks for taking your time to read it! =)

 

And as for the second half... well... for starters, we´re talking about a very specific range here, and the viability of either also depends on if you have dash momentum or not. I´ve played around with both of those a little bit, and although it depends on the situation I came to the conclusion but that I would generally go for 5hs FB Tatami FRC if it allows me to KO the opponent, or just do 2s if it doesn´t.

 

As it´s only on very specific ranges and characters you can only do 5s5hs Suzuran Sakura (and it actually combos), but 5s2d doesn´t, it feels like it is something you actually only start looking into at the supreme late game of developing your game. I mean, sure, it theoretically can allow you to score a (little) better reward on a very specific range, but I´d probably keep the tension gain instead. So I think that 5hs Suzuran Sakura FRC, albeit "kind of cool", does not really combo as reliably at the ranges and characters where I can´t use other starters like 5s-jD, 5s2d, 5sTatami, 2k6p(2) etc...

 

If you add that 5hs FB Tatami reliably combos at most ranges, and that using an FRC allows you do score a decent combo even when being pretty far from the corner, I´d say that if want to research and learn either of the two, go fir FB Tatami FRC combos.

 

What do you think?

[Stoneroth]

Seconding Hellmonkey on thanks for the post, I was contemplating learning some Dizzy (my Dizzy is really bad) but now I just want to play and improve Baiken. Looking forward to the combo video too, I thought your Legend of Kyoto one was great.

 

I was messing around with 6P AA combos last night and I was wondering what you generally do after 6P > j.D FRC, and I'm guessing the main point of this route would be burst baiting or corner carry?

From midscreen I was basically just doing 6P(2) > j.D FRC > ad j.Tatami then I could IAD j.S > j.D for example.

 

Or if someone could list a few 6P AA combos that would be great. Thanks!

[Hellmonkey]

Thanks for taking your time to read it! =)

 

And as for the second half... well... for starters, we´re talking about a very specific range here, and the viability of either also depends on if you have dash momentum or not. I´ve played around with both of those a little bit, and although it depends on the situation I came to the conclusion but that I would generally go for 5hs FB Tatami FRC if it allows me to KO the opponent, or just do 2s if it doesn´t.

 

As it´s only on very specific ranges and characters you can only do 5s5hs Suzuran Sakura (and it actually combos), but 5s2d doesn´t, it feels like it is something you actually only start looking into at the supreme late game of developing your game. I mean, sure, it theoretically can allow you to score a (little) better reward on a very specific range, but I´d probably keep the tension gain instead. So I think that 5hs Suzuran Sakura FRC, albeit "kind of cool", does not really combo as reliably at the ranges and characters where I can´t use other starters like 5s-jD, 5s2d, 5sTatami, 2k6p(2) etc...

 

If you add that 5hs FB Tatami reliably combos at most ranges, and that using an FRC allows you do score a decent combo even when being pretty far from the corner, I´d say that if want to research and learn either of the two, go fir FB Tatami FRC combos.

 

What do you think?

I've been playing around with it more and I see what you mean about suzuran sakura FRC being too range dependent.  It probably isn't worth investigating too closely except for some cool looking combos as you say.  One exception is using 75% to sakura FRC suzuran baku > followup to get the Baku effect from even a 2K.

 

FB tatami FRC seems like a much better option for this situation but I'm not sure about a reliable followup from many distances, as it seems quite character specific.  I like using airdash low hitting j.H which gives you a ton of time to follow up, but will require some more meter to continue the combo in many cases.

 

There are some other combo problems I've run into, like finding a reliable corner throw combo on venom due to not being able to tatami directly from throw.   Running 2K 6P suzuran zakuro works, as well as youshijin run 6P suzuran zakuro if you're deep, but if you're spaced a bit from the wall I don't know if a great tensionless solution exists.

 

@Stoneroth I'll look into 6P antiair combos as well when I get more time for training mode.

[Shinjin]

Or if someone could list a few 6P AA combos that would be great. Thanks!

 

Ok, some basic examples:

 

Midscreen (far from corner) - 6p 9 jK Tatami FRC ad Tatami > ad lib (e.g. dash 6hs Tatami 9 jK 9 jHS Tatami etc... or dash 5s 9 jK 9 jHS Tatami etc...)

Midscreen (close from corner) - 6p 9 jD FRC ad Tatami > ad lib (e.g. dash 6hs Tatami 9 jK 9 jHS Tatami etc... or dash 5s 9 jK 9 jHS Tatami etc...)

Midscreen (close from corner) - 6p 9 jS jD FRC ad jHS Tatami > 6k2hs 6p suzuran-zakuro

Corner - 6p Tatami 9 jK 9 JHS Tatami etc. OR 6p jD frc Tatami > ad lib (e.g. dash 6hs Tatami 9 jK 9 jHS Tatami etc... or dash 5s 9 jK 9 jHS Tatami etc...)

 

Basically; jK Tatami FRC ad Tatami is a combo part used for corner carry, jD FRC ad Tatami does also carries but not as long, and in the corner you have a lot of options.

 

There are some other combo problems I've run into, like finding a reliable corner throw combo on venom due to not being able to tatami directly from throw.   Running 2K 6P suzuran zakuro works, as well as youshijin run 6P suzuran zakuro if you're deep, but if you're spaced a bit from the wall I don't know if a great tensionless solution exists.

 

Well, you can combo tatami directly from throw on Venom. I would recommend you to either:

1) Throw, Tatami, dash 5s 9 jK 8 jHS Tatami 6p suzuran-zakuro (corner kd) [130 something damage, good tension gain]

or if I want to be a little bit more safe (in terms of execution)

2) Throw, dash 6p(2) kabari, 5s 6p(2) suzuran-zakuro [110 damage, good tension gain]

 

 

 

Edit: It feels like this discussion should be in the combo thread...

[Stoneroth]

Thanks a lot, I never considered some of those routes. I really need to improve my execution too.

[Hellmonkey]

Ok, some basic examples:

 

Midscreen (far from corner) - 6p 9 jK Tatami FRC ad Tatami > ad lib (e.g. dash 6hs Tatami 9 jK 9 jHS Tatami etc... or dash 5s 9 jK 9 jHS Tatami etc...)

Midscreen (close from corner) - 6p 9 jD FRC ad Tatami > ad lib (e.g. dash 6hs Tatami 9 jK 9 jHS Tatami etc... or dash 5s 9 jK 9 jHS Tatami etc...)

Midscreen (close from corner) - 6p 9 jS jD FRC ad jHS Tatami > 6k2hs 6p suzuran-zakuro

Corner - 6p Tatami 9 jK 9 JHS Tatami etc. OR 6p jD frc Tatami > ad lib (e.g. dash 6hs Tatami 9 jK 9 jHS Tatami etc... or dash 5s 9 jK 9 jHS Tatami etc...)

 

Basically; jK Tatami FRC ad Tatami is a combo part used for corner carry, jD FRC ad Tatami does also carries but not as long, and in the corner you have a lot of options.

 

 

Well, you can combo tatami directly from throw on Venom. I would recommend you to either:

1) Throw, Tatami, dash 5s 9 jK 8 jHS Tatami 6p suzuran-zakuro (corner kd) [130 something damage, good tension gain]

or if I want to be a little bit more safe (in terms of execution)

2) Throw, dash 6p(2) kabari, 5s 6p(2) suzuran-zakuro [110 damage, good tension gain]

 

 

 

Edit: It feels like this discussion should be in the combo thread...

Corner throw range concern

 

Your'e correct, tatami straight from throw works at a decent range outside the corner.  I like your running 5S followup, as I have been using 2D, and running 5S is a bit easier execution.  You still need to be within range to have a c.5S instead of f.5S though, or you cannot continue tensionless.

 

For example, if you knock down out of the corner with 6P suzuran zakuro, then throw them on their wakeup back into the corner, you can be close enough for a tatami but not close enough for the tensionless followup.  This gives Baiken less range on her meterless throw combo than simply using running 2k 5s > dustloop like in AC, losing some range to +R.  I don't think there is a solution as good as AC for this one, running 6P doesn't work at that range, nor 2k 6P.

 

Also for Axl throw -> tatami or 6P doesn't work at all, but I found you can do running 5HS tatami and as long as you land the following j.K link you still get a knockdown (137 damage throw Axl)  I don't know if an easier one exists for him.

 

Stoneroth: There is another method of corner carrying if you don't like to j.tatami FRC (I personally use other tools over this one if I can)

 

Running j.SD pick-up after low j.tatami

 

From nearly full screen 25%: 6P j.K > jc j.H > j.tatami (low) > running j.SD FRC > airdash j.tatami > j.K > jc j.H > j.tatami (crossup) > 6P suzuran zakuro (195 dmg VE)

 

From full screen 50%: 6P j.K jc j.H j.tatami running j.SD FRC airdash j.tatami sj.SD FRC airdash j.H tatami 6P suzuran zakuro (209 VE)

 

This version doesn't work on the lighter characters, you're better off playing with j.K j.tatami or zakuro loop for them.

 

 

If you're anywhere near the corner you can also go for tensionless: 6P j.K jc j.H j.tatami [running j.PK jc j.H j.tatami 6P suzuran zakuro.]

I believe this is the "easiest" form of this combo, although running 5S or 2D to replace running j.P in the bracketed section both work on most hitboxes closer to the corner.

The bracketed section of the combo can begin with: running j.PK, running 5S or 2D, or straight to (running, forward jump, or neutral jump) j.K based on the spacing.

 

6P> j.SD FRC > continue is always an option midscreen, although extremely hard to follow up as you get further from the corner.  

 

However, If you do decide to do a tension combo when in meterless-range, surely you should use 6P > (j.SD or j.D) FRC ad (j.tatami or j.h tatami) such that you land in front of them for a 6H > 2D, or straight 6H for the characters easy to follow up with j.K > jc j.H j.tatami and maintain your knockdown.

 

Want to blow all your meter?

 

For even further meter usage, use 6H j.D frc j.H j.tatami instead of going to j.K jc j.H j.tatami repetition.

 

 

Difficulty compared to other full-screen options?

 

I haven't found great bnb combos using wallbounce - kabari in full to mid screen, i feel like her other variations are more stable.  I haven't played enough with j.tatami FRC combos to know all their benefits, but perhaps this is the best stable option for even more ranges.  I also haven't compared the damages yet but they should be similar.

 

 The run-jump timing can be quite sensitive, as well as delaying j.H and j.tatami timings as required, although these are quite easy to adjust to once you get intuition from trying the combos.  The j.H j.tatami is very fundamental to her combos IMO.

 

 

Combo discussion?

 

As for where all this discussion belongs, I think it's fine to have combo and strategy discussion in this thread until (and if) we establish an official +R guide.  +R combos do not seem anywhere near as straightforward as AC.  I can merge combo related information away once a guide is completed.

[youcanwonder]

If ur close to the corner you can do 6p jd frc ad Hs tatami.. 5s js jdfrc ad Hs tatami (not sure how char specific it is but I've done it. Not use to typing combos out on the forums and what not so sorry if unreadable lol.

[Solid Gold Wall]

a lot of great info in this thread, thanks a lot

anyway what have you guys been doing after 5d?

 

EDIT: never mind, found these from hellmonkey in the combo thread:
 

5d fd j.K (impossible dust) jc j.H j.tatami j.k jc j.h j.tatami 6p zakuro (fa: 148)

note: with certain spacing (and against light characters) you can just do jump forward j.h j.tatami after your first falling j.h j.tatami. (no j.k jc part)
e.g. 5d fd j.k jc j.h j.tatami j.h j.tatami 6p zakuro (di: 166, br: 155)

or

5d fd j.k (land) j.k j.h j.tatami j.k j.h j.tatami 6p zakuro (te: 142)