GG:AC Official Tier List Thread

[Darkhonor90]

I have to ask why Zappa is B in this game.

Seriously, his game sped up so far, and I can't really think of how he's bad. He has everything he needed to be S tier in this game, but Eddie and Testament got all the buffs too.

I know he's worlds better than #R (unsure about Slash) but I just don't see his negatives.

-Lack of Damage

-Very situtional

-Random factors can make you or break you at times (IE. Sword popping out in coner lolz)

Those are the big ones I cna think of off the top of my head

Zappa has very little damage output in Sword,Ghost,Dog. Most average combos end around 25-30% and most tension combos go to 45-50%

Almost everything he does is based on situations you have to improvise on alot of times because of example number 3

He really has nothing very solid to work on. Alot of gimmicks and hoping on that one situation where he can work it really well

Unlike characters like Testament who can get good high reward low risk trade offs, deal high damage off of anything, high mixup (So potential to deal damage is increased greatly)

Zappa has none of those. His reward/risk are in more favor of risk than reward, he deals shitty damage and his mixup game is average at best.

[DJ Xero]

I'd actually like to see the "Matchups" chart. I used to have it, but it disappeared, and I can't find it.

[CrimsonDisaster]

Zappa does pretty decent damage with sword, dog (infinites, instant dizzies of CH 2H, etc.), and Raou (of course), ghosts aren't super awesome for damage but they do enough given that they're generally more of a zoning/fillscreenwithcrap summon. The problem isn't necessarily weaknesses in Zappa (though he has some), it's more that the rest of the cast is that much stronger.

[reaVer]

Ghost generally lock down an opponent and prevent him making any moves, especially in a corner. Theoretically anyways...

[Tiamat]

This is the first game where Zappa isn't bottom 3 on the tiers so he's made quite a jump with Accent Core.

[burningvigor]

Anyone kinda not believe that the tier list is that close. It really doesnt seem to reflect what Ive seen. Like when ogawa vs kaqn. Ogawa says the match up is 6 to 4 in eddie. But ogawa was getting like 10+ straight wins here and there. Then kaqn wins 1 than eddie wins another 6 than kaqn wins 2 than eddie gets 11+. Just feel like its a little exaggerated in how close some match ups are. But yeah GGAC is still the most balanced game by far.

[Hellmonkey]

Ogawa is a much better player...

[burningvigor]

so where do you start to base the list than? Does ogawa face much better OS players for him to say he wins 6 out of 10 matches? Or these list reflect what they notice in other players playing the chars as well?

[Tiamat]

it's not a perfect science

[DJ Xero]

so where do you start to base the list than? Does ogawa face much better OS players for him to say he wins 6 out of 10 matches? Or these list reflect what they notice in other players playing the chars as well?

The thing is that saying it's a 7-3 or an 8-2 matchup means that Not only do you have to outplay your opponent, but you also have to use every tool at your disposal, and treat everything as though you are going to lose.

Really, there is no matchup, except maybe Pot v Testament/Eddie or Chipp v Pot where people are actually surprised the underdog won, and that's generally the case with a 7-3/8-2 matchup.

In MvC2 People would be wondering what kind of monster beat Justin Wong's team with Roll, Dan, and ServBot.

That is a 10-0, 9-1, or being EXTREMELY generous, an 8-2.

Seriously though, I don't think that a single game in the Guilty Gear series has had that kind of matchup.

[Hellmonkey]

so where do you start to base the list than? Does ogawa face much better OS players for him to say he wins 6 out of 10 matches? Or these list reflect what they notice in other players playing the chars as well?

You're getting to one of the main reasons general tier lists will never be fully accurate and, in this game's case, won't accomplish anything by being made. It's impossible to rank the characters played ideally because there is no way to test it, so we have to rank them at the level that we can play them at. One could argue that Bridget is high tier because Ruu, even if he has to work harder, can beat a large majority of the players of all characters. Having to work harder doesn't relate to the character's strength though- only the difficulty of playing them.

Due to these things the only tier lists we can make are based on what it feels like they are. Eddie has amazing offense, with unblockables, great poking, great damage, although one could argue that at ideal level play he wouldn't be nearly as good because people would always escape his strings that can be IB->backdashed, would always reversal perfectly to minimize damage from unblockables, and would always poke to get rid of little eddie as safely as possible- once successfully getting rid of little eddie, Eddie is clearly one of the weakest characters. Despite this, at the level the game is actually played it is MUCH easier to use his offense close to it's maximum potential than it is to deal with it, so it is very easy to say that he is high tier at the level the game is played. This, of course, may not be accurate when considering higher-level play where the opponent can deal with eddie's offense.

Part of the reason the tiers in this game are extremely close at top-level play because every character in this game has aspects that can allow them to completely dominate even their worst matchups, whether it be zoning/pressure/defense/etc. There are simply too many factors to combine everything to make accurate overall tier lists, especially due to that fact that they are so close together, but what we can do is rank the characters in seperate categories of strengths fairly accurately. We can see how much average damage characters do off their pokes, how many options they have for poking, how their movement is, options for escaping pressure, options for okizeme, tension gain/dependance, etc. To combine all of these aspects accurately is impossible, though, party due to the problem i described earlier where we can't specify the level of play, which doesn't allow us to quantitate the importance of the different categories of strengths we rate the characters by.

That's not to say that the tier lists made aren't somewhat accurate, chances are that if we could make a perfect tier list at the top-level play in Japan it would be somewhat similar to what we have, but with I-no winning DF2 and Anji winning a-cho 3v3.. what's the point?

[Double]

You're getting to one of the main reasons general tier lists will never be fully accurate and, in this game's case, won't accomplish anything by being made. It's impossible to rank the characters played ideally because there is no way to test it, so we have to rank them at the level that we can play them at. One could argue that Bridget is high tier because Ruu, even if he has to work harder, can beat a large majority of the players of all characters. Having to work harder doesn't relate to the character's strength though- only the difficulty of playing them.

Due to these things the only tier lists we can make are based on what it feels like they are. Eddie has amazing offense, with unblockables, great poking, great damage, although one could argue that at ideal level play he wouldn't be nearly as good because people would always escape his strings that can be IB->backdashed, would always reversal perfectly to minimize damage from unblockables, and would always poke to get rid of little eddie as safely as possible- once successfully getting rid of little eddie, Eddie is clearly one of the weakest characters. Despite this, at the level the game is actually played it is MUCH easier to use his offense close to it's maximum potential than it is to deal with it, so it is very easy to say that he is high tier at the level the game is played. This, of course, may not be accurate when considering higher-level play where the opponent can deal with eddie's offense.

Part of the reason the tiers in this game are extremely close at top-level play because every character in this game has aspects that can allow them to completely dominate even their worst matchups, whether it be zoning/pressure/defense/etc. There are simply too many factors to combine everything to make accurate overall tier lists, especially due to that fact that they are so close together, but what we can do is rank the characters in seperate categories of strengths fairly accurately. We can see how much average damage characters do off their pokes, how many options they have for poking, how their movement is, options for escaping pressure, options for okizeme, tension gain/dependance, etc. To combine all of these aspects accurately is impossible, though, party due to the problem i described earlier where we can't specify the level of play, which doesn't allow us to quantitate the importance of the different categories of strengths we rate the characters by.

That's not to say that the tier lists made aren't somewhat accurate, chances are that if we could make a perfect tier list at the top-level play in Japan it would be somewhat similar to what we have, but with I-no winning DF2 and Anji winning a-cho 3v3.. what's the point?

well said hellmonkey

[Greed]

Lol 4 Chuck. (This guy's japanese makes no sense. Silly gamers )

Bridget

• Max Damage C: Far-slash -> pullback combo. If you include his unblockable, it could be an A. There is nowhere to aim your FB within your combos.
• Average Damage D: Your air-air, poke damage is basically shit and doesn't have knockdown, so it's more shit.
• Pokes B+: Good range, but it's easy to confuse yourself trying to follow the opponent on pullback.
• Pressure/Lockdown B-: You can kinda stick to your opponent with 2P and Starship. Pretty much useless on high-mobility characters, though.
• Mixup C: Yo-yo's pretty vicious, but difficult to set up just right. Pretty much worthless mid-screen.
• Okizeme B: Unblockable, Ore to kill machine are awesome. Rushdown is still good. Set up your yo-yo for mixups.
• Against Ground C+: Messing up their timings with your rolling is awesome, but it's common to be able to follow up properly on air-to-air (or alternatively, if they're off the ground. Or if they're NOT off the ground )
• Against Air A: One of Bridget's few boasting points. Her anti-air pwns almost every character.
• Breaking out of Pressure A: Still topclass, even after being nerfed.
• Defense D-: Bridget is a delicate flower.
• In general B+: With Bridget's mobility and spacing, you can control the battlefield. Losing on gauge efficiency sucks.
• Overall Rank: D (A whole bunch of slang I don't really understand, but he basically says Bridget's a fruit with no attack or defense).
• Good matchup(s): Pot. If you spend more than 5 minutes winning this matchup, you suck.
• Bad matchups Millia, Testament. Millia just owns you all around, the only logical explanation is she's just superior. Let's not even mention Testament.

[Jais]

Thank You ^_^

[vxnine]

You're getting to one of the main reasons general tier lists will never be fully accurate and, in this game's case, won't accomplish anything by being made. It's impossible to rank the characters played ideally because there is no way to test it, so we have to rank them at the level that we can play them at. One could argue that Bridget is high tier because Ruu, even if he has to work harder, can beat a large majority of the players of all characters. Having to work harder doesn't relate to the character's strength though- only the difficulty of playing them.

Due to these things the only tier lists we can make are based on what it feels like they are. Eddie has amazing offense, with unblockables, great poking, great damage, although one could argue that at ideal level play he wouldn't be nearly as good because people would always escape his strings that can be IB->backdashed, would always reversal perfectly to minimize damage from unblockables, and would always poke to get rid of little eddie as safely as possible- once successfully getting rid of little eddie, Eddie is clearly one of the weakest characters. Despite this, at the level the game is actually played it is MUCH easier to use his offense close to it's maximum potential than it is to deal with it, so it is very easy to say that he is high tier at the level the game is played. This, of course, may not be accurate when considering higher-level play where the opponent can deal with eddie's offense.

Part of the reason the tiers in this game are extremely close at top-level play because every character in this game has aspects that can allow them to completely dominate even their worst matchups, whether it be zoning/pressure/defense/etc. There are simply too many factors to combine everything to make accurate overall tier lists, especially due to that fact that they are so close together, but what we can do is rank the characters in seperate categories of strengths fairly accurately. We can see how much average damage characters do off their pokes, how many options they have for poking, how their movement is, options for escaping pressure, options for okizeme, tension gain/dependance, etc. To combine all of these aspects accurately is impossible, though, party due to the problem i described earlier where we can't specify the level of play, which doesn't allow us to quantitate the importance of the different categories of strengths we rate the characters by.

That's not to say that the tier lists made aren't somewhat accurate, chances are that if we could make a perfect tier list at the top-level play in Japan it would be somewhat similar to what we have, but with I-no winning DF2 and Anji winning a-cho 3v3.. what's the point?

great read

[rtl42]

Bridget

"orekiru" is most likely "ore to kill machine"; gaafu, i couldn't even guess at the actual name, but from the context, it might be his yo-yo pullback glitch?

edit: i have been "reminded" that "unblockable" is "ga~do fukanou" (impossible guard), so the natural abbreviation is "ga~fu".

[Gilg@me$h]

The thing is that saying it's a 7-3 or an 8-2 matchup means that Not only do you have to outplay your opponent, but you also have to use every tool at your disposal, and treat everything as though you are going to lose.

Really, there is no matchup, except maybe Pot v Testament/Eddie or Chipp v Pot where people are actually surprised the underdog won, and that's generally the case with a 7-3/8-2 matchup.

In MvC2 People would be wondering what kind of monster beat Justin Wong's team with Roll, Dan, and ServBot.

That is a 10-0, 9-1, or being EXTREMELY generous, an 8-2.

Seriously though, I don't think that a single game in the Guilty Gear series has had that kind of matchup.

Good point. But look at it this way, everyone has some kind of advantage in Guilty Gear. Dnt let the tier list fool you. Potemkin and Eddie could go 10-0 (until they face each other). Hell, the only character i think can't do that is Bridget and Anji. Reason i say that is because Bridget can get his/her ass handed to em. And Anji just doesn't have that power or range to do anything worthwhile (unless u know how to play with him). I think S, A, and some B tier characters can go 10-0, just gotta judge them by their gameplay. A perfect example is my boy Order Sol. I was put in a situation where I had to fight Jam (A-class character according to the tier). Order Sol would be the underdog in this matchup, but he beat her with no problem. Makes u wonder, don't it?

[Cadenza]

You're getting to one of the main reasons general tier lists will never be fully accurate and, in this game's case, won't accomplish anything by being made. It's impossible to rank the characters played ideally because there is no way to test it, so we have to rank them at the level that we can play them at. One could argue that Bridget is high tier because Ruu, even if he has to work harder, can beat a large majority of the players of all characters. Having to work harder doesn't relate to the character's strength though- only the difficulty of playing them.

Due to these things the only tier lists we can make are based on what it feels like they are. Eddie has amazing offense, with unblockables, great poking, great damage, although one could argue that at ideal level play he wouldn't be nearly as good because people would always escape his strings that can be IB->backdashed, would always reversal perfectly to minimize damage from unblockables, and would always poke to get rid of little eddie as safely as possible- once successfully getting rid of little eddie, Eddie is clearly one of the weakest characters. Despite this, at the level the game is actually played it is MUCH easier to use his offense close to it's maximum potential than it is to deal with it, so it is very easy to say that he is high tier at the level the game is played. This, of course, may not be accurate when considering higher-level play where the opponent can deal with eddie's offense.

Part of the reason the tiers in this game are extremely close at top-level play because every character in this game has aspects that can allow them to completely dominate even their worst matchups, whether it be zoning/pressure/defense/etc. There are simply too many factors to combine everything to make accurate overall tier lists, especially due to that fact that they are so close together, but what we can do is rank the characters in seperate categories of strengths fairly accurately. We can see how much average damage characters do off their pokes, how many options they have for poking, how their movement is, options for escaping pressure, options for okizeme, tension gain/dependance, etc. To combine all of these aspects accurately is impossible, though, party due to the problem i described earlier where we can't specify the level of play, which doesn't allow us to quantitate the importance of the different categories of strengths we rate the characters by.

That's not to say that the tier lists made aren't somewhat accurate, chances are that if we could make a perfect tier list at the top-level play in Japan it would be somewhat similar to what we have, but with I-no winning DF2 and Anji winning a-cho 3v3.. what's the point?

Bravo

[Greed]

"orekiru" is most likely "ore to kill machine"; gaafu, i couldn't even guess at the actual name, but from the context, it might be his yo-yo pullback glitch?

edit: i have been "reminded" that "unblockable" is "ga~do fukanou" (impossible guard), so the natural abbreviation is "ga~fu".

Fix'd, thx

[SugataDesigns]

Good point. But look at it this way, everyone has some kind of advantage in Guilty Gear. Dnt let the tier list fool you. Potemkin and Eddie could go 10-0 (until they face each other). Hell, the only character i think can't do that is Bridget and Anji. Reason i say that is because Bridget can get his/her ass handed to em. And Anji just doesn't have that power or range to do anything worthwhile (unless u know how to play with him). I think S, A, and some B tier characters can go 10-0, just gotta judge them by their gameplay. A perfect example is my boy Order Sol. I was put in a situation where I had to fight Jam (A-class character according to the tier). Order Sol would be the underdog in this matchup, but he beat her with no problem. Makes u wonder, don't it?

I know Ruu's been on a 70+ something win streak in casuals, so Bridget could go 10-0, whatever that means. Also, you have to take into account that tier lists apply when players are perfectly matched according to their skill level. I know nothing of the Jam-OS matchup, but if Order-Sol does have a disadvantage, and you, as Order-Sol, played someone of equal skill playing Jam (And you both played the matchup normally; no kinky stuff), the Jam would most likely win.

Point being, there's nothing to wonder about. You simply were a better player than the Jam, whether in playing skill or knowledge of the matchup or other various factors. :P

[Gilg@me$h]

I know Ruu's been on a 70+ something win streak in casuals, so Bridget could go 10-0, whatever that means. Also, you have to take into account that tier lists apply when players are perfectly matched according to their skill level. I know nothing of the Jam-OS matchup, but if Order-Sol does have a disadvantage, and you, as Order-Sol, played someone of equal skill playing Jam (And you both played the matchup normally; no kinky stuff), the Jam would most likely win.

Point being, there's nothing to wonder about. You simply were a better player than the Jam, whether in playing skill or knowledge of the matchup or other various factors. :P

The guy i played was better than me. Jam has speed over him. Meant nothing, though, once i hit lvl 3. Didn't really need it, though. OS should be A-class IMO. :p

[EasyModeNub]

Kinda random, but in reference to to great post about how tier lists are at human play level and not perfect play level. I got bored and was thinking about that, and at a perfect play lvl I think Venom, Bridget, and Slayer would be some of the hardest to deal with. Venom - Lockdown from hell, amazing zoning, insane utility. Bridget - Well, a perfect bridget would just be so hard to beat. Perfect zoning... Slayer - BDC super/bite/mappa/jump/taunt every possible move that it can... it would be ridiculous.

[CrimsonDisaster]

uhhh nope ;( First off- given perfect execution but not stupid "oh just DP everything FOREVER" arguments, Buri still does less damage than the rest of the cast, still gets raped on impact, and still has issues properly setting up midscreen oki because that isn't a matter of "perfect play" so much as perfect circumstances. So he zones well or runs away well. He doesn't even have to mess up to lose, though. As to Slayer, BDC doesn't give enough invul to cover startup-to-active time for any of Slayer's moves. It's enough to sometimes dodge not-very-meaty moves if timed really well, but yeah. This isn't #R. In a "perfect play level" people can backdash a lot of his mixup and FD when they have to jump or tech. What then? He wins the same way he wins now, superior normals, fishing for counter-hits, creating openings in strings with FD/IB/SB, and generally playing safe till he gets his shot to do big damage. Venom would still have poor options to break out of pressure, he would still do good damage in a retarded damage game. He would just do what he already does, better. So would everybody else in "perfect play." The fact of the matter is that there's no such thing as "perfect level play" because that's the theory fighter dream of "don't get hit, never let them get close, always successfully mix up, beat out all their moves, parry out of pressure 100% of the time." It doesn't happen and it has no bearing on a tier list because EVERY character is top tier when nobody can hit them and nobody can block them. Tier lists are generally based on the realistic limit we can see a character reaching in relation to the rest of the cast. Realistically speaking, Eddie pressure is simply the best in the game and every escape requires a guess, and sometimes the best you can do is eat an unblockable a certain way to take less damage. Realistically speaking, Slayer has a lot of crazy high-priority moves that murder you on counter-hit, and has the defensive moves and defensive modifiers to hold out until he can kill you in 2-3 combos. Realistically speaking, Jam is fast enough to go around zoning and kill you. Realistically speaking, Sol VVs get baited as often as they land, Dizzy and Chipp die in two combos, Axl's pokes get dodged and his up-close game is risky/bad, Johnny's combos don't do enough for their tension cost and his 1-hit -> mist setups are throwable unless he wastes even more tension. Realistically speaking, the best I-No player is a guy who constantly wakes up with reversal TK vertical Chemical Love and loses for it. How much value a particular person places on particular character strengths and how much a particular person will devalue/ignore particular character strengths plays a big part in the details of a tier list (who's better than who), but the broad categories (who's best, who's worst, who's stuck in between) are pretty straight-forward simply based on who is strong and who is not.

[Lil Majin]

CrimsonDisastor - very well put. Chipp is S-class........

[Gilg@me$h]

CrimsonDisastor - very well put.

Chipp is S-class........

If he doesn't get hit. U are S-Class