GG:AC Official Tier List Thread

[Ryu]

The argument is whether or not tiers matter enough in high level play to be considered.

Oh, thats easy then. In the Olympics does .01 of a second matter? Well that puts a end to that conversation.

Translation for stupid people who try to argue: Any advantage you can get always matters.

[Hellmonkey]

Yes, but there is no good way to define who has said advantage. There is too much depth to sum everything up in one nice list for character's overall strengths.

Basically this shit, again.

[frtpunchsamurai]

Meh, lets end this now with a period. . .

[Ryu]

If you agree with the tier list you agree that Eddie and Testament are the strongest, therefore they have the advantage.

[Hellmonkey]

Ogawa A will win...am i right, i hope im right. i do believe tiers exist

I don't know, Ogawa's Potemkin is a beast.

Ryu...

[Ryu]

Its the truth man. This agrument is pointless. That reminds me. There are different levels of perfect. So Ogawa A would still win assuming both Potemkin and Eddie become more near perfect at the same ratio.

[Rome]

Honestly, I know where your coming from Hellmonkey, and as much as I want to side with you, I can't. I would retort, but it'll just be theory fighter and splitting atoms, since both sides of the argument are really strong. Unfortunately, arguments like these can only be resolved face to face. Also, as the Japanese have shown, making tiers based on tournament results is impossible. Plus, you have to handle the big party, the EVO thread. I say......rejoice to the fact that this is one of, if not the only 2D fighting game were tiers aren't concrete and really define the game.

[Ryu]

IDK how GG's tier list is made, but the most mathematically sound way to make one would be: take all the good GG players, (or a very big portion of them) have them play a large number of matches, and the average win/loss ratio would put every character in their correct tier position. I assume when they said such and such character has a 6/4 match up this is what they have done? That aside there are times when new strategies are found for X character which could change match ups and affect the tier list. These become more and more rare as time progresses. In short, potential growth per character decreases over time thus we are left with a more accurate tier list than we started with. So I dont see why it wouldnt be possible to determine whos the best character

[reaVer]

Imo tierlists don't really show which character is stronger but instead show which character being exploited by a certain group of players at a certain moment is stronger. And that creates a margin for error. That error margin in turn is what we're seeing when we see KZO piss on Ogawa, Efute OCVing in SBO finals, no S or A(?) tier making it to the SBO finals while several low tiers did.

[Ryu]

but instead show which character being exploited by a certain group of players at a certain moment is stronger.

You said that backwards. For the current tier list Eddie and test tube are being exploited the most. That would mean the characters at the top are creating the margin of error. That wouldnt explain why low tier are winning by your theory.

May(Efute) is higher than Bridget and Anji.

[Xeno]

"Genius" player is an interesting remark. If genius means "damn awesome player, knows everything about their characters" then I would think tier lists would be written *with* genius-skill in mind. If genius means "ability to outsmart opponent" then, *shrug* it's something else.

[Teyah]

Each character has a limited set of options in various situations (oki, neutral ground/air, slight frame +/-, wakeup, etc) that can all be ranked and compared to the rest of the cast with a general degree of accuracy (see posts #2 and #3). Regarding the discernment of which characters hold an overall advantage, it's pretty clear that would go to characters with increasingly less risky/more rewarding options.

Sorry, I should have noted that they're my interpretations. I figured that it'd be unlikely for zappa to get a translation any time soon lol. I wouldn't imagine that they're much different than what the Japanese would say though, considering I more or less agree with the grading for him.

No problem, the effort is appreciated. I'll link your posts from the main page, but I really would like to get an accurate translation of the remaining characters (A.B.A, Faust, Zappa) for consistency's sake, if nothing else.

[zer0kage]

Tier lists represent nothing more than a probability. Between 2 skilled (equally skill is too vague) players, the high tier character player has a higher probability of winning than his opponent who uses a low tier. The significance of this can be great. However, does this guarantee the match? Nope because a high probability isn't truly a guarantee (a 100%). Unless I happen to be some sick SNK boss where their odds are like 98% on most of the cast and that's why they're banned. The emphasis is on probability. Picking a high tier and using that character augments your chances of winning that match but it doesn't mean the weaker character can't outright kill you if you don't play your cards right. Over a series of games between 2 skilled players, a trend is possible where you do see the stronger character winning more. However, in tournaments where it's only a couple of matches, anything can happen and moreso in a well made fighting game and what happens in a tournament setting usually matters more. So tierlists might be cast in stone on bare stats on paper but how the player takes the character in the match is a more important factor. You will feel the levels of strengths between characters (insane abare, deadly oki, clearly better pokes etc) but doesn't mean it's unbeatable unless it's some overly broken SNK boss that isn't supposed to be used for VS play except for giggles. So inorder to clear it all, yes tiers do exist BUT they don't outright determine the outcome of that particular match. Yes matchups do favour characters here and there but they can still lose. That doesn't mean the loser of the stronger player is the worse player but for that match he/she has been outgamed. GGAC there's more leeway for weaker characters winning matches which is a good thing and how the player takes on the match is still the more important factor.

[reaVer]

You said that backwards. For the current tier list Eddie and test tube are being exploited the most. That would mean the characters at the top are creating the margin of error. That wouldnt explain why low tier are winning by your theory.

May(Efute) is higher than Bridget and Anji.

No I said it properly, you're reading it backwards. For the current tier list Eddie and Testament are exploited in such a way they have the higher chances of winning, not just exploited the most. And no, that doesn't mean that the characters at the top create the margin for error. The whole fact that the tierlist is a representation of what people do with a certain character means that some people can do things that would change the real character tiering, even if for just a second.

[Ryu]

For the current tier list Eddie and Testament are exploited in such a way they have the higher chances of winning, not just exploited the most.

Surly this also would mean low tier characters are not being exploited because the method hasnt been found yet or they can not be exploited. E rank cant be exploited to the extent of an S rank.

And no, that doesn't mean that the characters at the top create the margin for error.

Why? Really I dont see where your coming from.

The whole fact that the tierlist is a representation of what people do with a certain character means that some people can do things that would change the real character tiering, even if for just a second.

So the current tier list is wrong? If a characters tier changes from B to S that means the character wasnt a B rank to begin with. He/she just had unknown growth potential.

Tier lists represent nothing more than a probability.

You are exactly correct. This is why Low tier characters are able to win over high tier characters. Skill is a outside factor that increases every players chance of winning.

[reaVer]

Surly this also would mean low tier characters are not being exploited because the method hasnt been found yet or they can not be exploited. E rank cant be exploited to the extent of an S rank.

Why? Really I dont see where your coming from.

So the current tier list is wrong? If a characters tier changes from B to S that means the character wasnt a B rank to begin with. He/she just had unknown growth potential.

You are exactly correct. This is why Low tier characters are able to win over high tier characters. Skill is a outside factor that increases every players chance of winning.

No, this surely would mean that the characters found on D tier are currently not exploited in a manner that their winning chances are better than characters found in higher tiers.

The margin for error is made by the players playing the game, this is the third time I'm saying this...

Correct, if a character's tier changes the previous tier position was wrong. At the same time, that position was right with the given info that the players had.

[Ryu]

No, this surely would mean that the characters found on D tier are currently not exploited in a manner that their winning chances are better than characters found in higher tiers.

Ok. Some character has to be D rank. It doesnt matter who. Who ever rises is no longer low tier and who falls is no longer high tier. Changing the list doesnt explain anything.

Correct, if a character's tier changes the previous tier position was wrong. At the same time, that position was right with the given info that the players had.

Other than making the current tier list wrong I dont see what point your trying to make. Regardless of character Someone is going to be S and someone is going to be D. And I know you cant be saying S and E rank can change on the fly.

[frtpunchsamurai]

No I said it properly, you're reading it backwards. For the current tier list Eddie and Testament are exploited in such a way they have the higher chances of winning, not just exploited the most. And no, that doesn't mean that the characters at the top create the margin for error. The whole fact that the tierlist is a representation of what people do with a certain character means that some people can do things that would change the real character tiering, even if for just a second.

Of course in certain situations some characters can be S-tier. Like how Millia becomes S-tier when she okizeme mixup(probably the reason why team shonen lost this year).

[Kane]

Each character has a limited set of options in various situations (oki, neutral ground/air, slight frame +/-, wakeup, etc) that can all be ranked and compared to the rest of the cast with a general degree of accuracy (see posts #2 and #3). Regarding the discernment of which characters hold an overall advantage, it's pretty clear that would go to characters with increasingly less risky/more rewarding options.

I think Teyah pretty much summed it up here.

The tier list means little in real-life matches, it's just a comparison of characters advantages and risk/reward in given situations, (wakeup, etc).

In real matches, it's all down to who's the better man on the day. AC isn't a game where you can just pick a top tier and instantly win.

[rtl42]

well, that depends on your competition...

[Ryu]

^^Yea. I think people just got confused because of skill levels. If both players are on the same skill level a 7:3 match up looks like a 6:4 matchup. (I'm lazy so I didnt type the math out. >_>) So as you can see the better the player the more of an advantage they have.

[FleetingPenguin]

I'd really appreciate a translation for Faust, if someone could do that.

[Xeno]

Since there is no "hit button for automatic hit/win" (like your SNK boss reference), could it be said that Guilty Gear's tier lists // character potential represent "difficulty" for the other player to respond with? So.. a super-good poke makes out-poking extremely "difficult" (but not -unbeatable-). because there are no "free hits" in Guilty Gear before a combo starts (you can't *force* someone to get hit, you have to out-play them or they have to make a mistake ex. block wrong, not guess your tick-throw attempt). So, is tier-list = "difficulty" for the other player, as both "overall" and specifics (ex. superb oki means defending against that oki is very difficult), a correct statement?

[Hellmonkey]

Tier lists rate character's potential (but realistic) strengths, regardless of difficulty. To rate their difficulty requires specifying an exact level of play, which is impossible unless you're talking about complete beginners because of GG's complexity.

Basically this shit, again.

[JinSaotome]

(you can't *force* someone to get hit, you have to out-play them or they have to make a mistake ex. block wrong, not guess your tick-throw attempt).

You can if you play Eddie

or if you're in America, Robo-Ky.