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GG:AC Official Tier List Thread

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Generally speaking, I agree. I just don't think there's much justification in saying that everyone's C tier, either. There are some characters that are obviously stronger than most of the cast and characters that are obviously weaker (Fun fact: Eddie and Johnny are the only characters to have never moved from their respective positions on the tier list).

I guess I should keep in mind that such things aren't always necessarily obvious at first (see: C tier Millia, lol). But in the case of Zappa and Venom, I fail to see how you can say they're about as good as most of the cast when they have tools that clearly put them a notch or two above the rest. And it's not like we haven't seen both of these characters wreck house in numerous tournaments, either.

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Venom doesn't really have that much of an advantage really. Like stated before, everyone that gets the attack on him ends up in huge advantage over him and it's very hard for him to keep people locked out for the full match. His 'amazingly' offensive options aren't all that good either, he can get sweeped by some members of the cast on opening, he has a really bad whiff recovery and has quite a bit of CH state all around. I guess if you don't really know him, kinda like slayer, you are at a much bigger disadvantage than when you're comfortable with the matchup.

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Generally speaking, I agree. I just don't think there's much justification in saying that everyone's C tier, either. There are some characters that are obviously stronger than most of the cast and characters that are obviously weaker (Fun fact: Eddie and Johnny are the only characters to have never moved from their respective positions on the tier list).

I guess I should keep in mind that such things aren't always necessarily obvious at first (see: C tier Millia, lol). But in the case of Zappa and Venom, I fail to see how you can say they're about as good as most of the cast when they have tools that clearly put them a notch or two above the rest. And it's not like we haven't seen both of these characters wreck house in numerous tournaments, either.

I think you missed the entire point of my post. The rankings are not a representation of top player's opinions, so please stop treating it that way.

Some players continue to argue about ranking, while those who understand the level of permutations in a game like GG know that every character has good options to win in every match.

An accurate ranking system to describe a character's overall performance in all 23 matchups in a game like this is impossible.

Even comparing different characters to each other on an individual basis is unlikely to be productive due to the uniqueness of every GG character.

Guilty Gear is more about finding a play style than just solving the game. It's too complicated to analyze like that.

Edited by Hellmonkey

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The rankings are not a representation of top player's opinions, so please stop treating it that way.

Then, if you don't mind me asking, what are they? Someone has to be making these lists, and if the people behind them aren't top players (nevermind the lists put out by Koichi, Ogawa, etc., which are clearly their opinions and are not representative of the opinions of others), then I don't see how they're valid at all.

An accurate ranking system to describe a character's overall performance in all 23 matchups in a game like this is impossible.

This I agree with. It's been two years since the last published tier list; either everyone agrees with it, or nobody does. Based on that and what you've been saying through this entire thread, I'll bet the latter.

I guess I should clarify that my point here is that the latest tier list reeks of laziness. It may very well be impossible to accurately rank each and every character, but if you're going to try, at least put in a better effort than what we have right now. We don't need a tier list to tell us that everyone's good, because anyone that plays the game with a modicum of seriousness knows that. But, it would be nice if we could get opinions from the best players as to who might edge out over much of the cast. At least as far as Guilty Gear is concerned, that's the function a tier list should serve.

Edited by qwerty

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Then, if you don't mind me asking, what are they?

Outdated lists from when good players still put forward an effort to rank characters in the game.

We see that in GGAC every character can absolutely dominate through player skill alone, even at a very high level.

Japanese players are also scattered and rarely play outside of their area.

This led to a disparity in the tiers early on (like you mentioned, it would be ridiculous to say Millia is weaker than many characters).

These days, most have realized it is impossible to rank the characters meaningfully.

edit:grammar

Edited by Hellmonkey

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I sort of agree in that although a tier list is interesting from a theoretical standpoint, GG is so tactically sharp and double edged that it does not really matter from a practical point of view. There are no matchups where one side is dead lost like Chun v. Alex in 3S, or even as bad as one side only gets one shot at winning per round or he otherwise loses like say, Yun v. Q in 3S.

Although there are matchups that you could classify as 6-4ish, the reality is that every character has some offensive BS and every character can force a double edged situation where it's so tactically complex and sharp that the person with better understanding as to what is going on will tend to win out, and the person with lesser understanding will tend to get crushed. I suppose if you had computers playing perfectly in such situations, you can figure out which character will tend to win out and tier it out that way, but there are a lot of situations that I don't think even top players understand too well. From my personal experience, even though I have been playing since XX, I have played in matches where sometimes even I don't know what is going on. So from a human play point of view, the tier list is meaningless.

That's why I think GG is pretty cool. The only other game that I can think of that renders tier lists to be meaningless is SSVSP, but that game does it backwards in comparison (rather dull tactically, but so strategically complex that the person with better understanding will win out most of the time, and what character will win a given tourney is extremely random).

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Nice post, 100% agree. It's ultimately the human component that makes these lists trivial for GGAC.

You really are playing the player, but to be real, you can say that about any game once you pull BOTH out of casual level. I don't feel right holding GG up just because...

PS: Nerf May.

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You really are playing the player, but to be real, you can say that about any game once you pull BOTH out of casual level. I don't feel right holding GG up just because...

PS: Nerf May.

GGAC happens to have a large cast that can all viably win every matchup, and who are all very unique from one another.

I believe this is a rare phenomenon brought about by extremely well flushed out game mechanics and versions of balancing.

In most other games, including the other versions of Guilty Gear, I do not believe this is necessarily the case.

Tier lists can give players a great representation of how they can expect to fare against similar-level opponents, ideally focused toward high level play to minimize human error due to a lack of understanding of the game.

This approach just doesn't work for GGAC.

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I was curious about this discussion since I'll probably be learning GG seriously once it releases on PS3/360. So I decided to see what a tier list would look like if you averaged out the tier lists.

There's 7 tier lists provided, but Ogawa's isn't graded the same so initially it is left out just to see the difference.

Initial Scale:

S = 100

A = 90

B = 80

C = 70

D = 60

Average Scale:

S = 100

A+ = 98

A = 95

A- = 92

B+ = 88

B = 85

B- = 82

C+ = 78

C = 75

C- = 72

D+ = 68

D = 65

D- = 62

F = 55

Averaged Tier List Placement:

Eddie: S,S,S,S,S,S = 600 (100) = S

Testament: S,S,S,S,S,S = 600 (100) = S

Slayer: A,S,A,S,A,B = 550 (91.6) = A-

Potemkin: A,S,S,A,A,B = 550 (91.6) = A-

Jam: A,A,A,A,A,B = 530 (88.3) = B+

Baiken : B,S,S,A,A,C = 530 (88.3) = B+

Millia: B,S,B,A,C,A = 510 (85) = B

May: A,B,A,A,B,B = 510 (85) = B

Axl: B,A,B,B,B,C = 480 (80) = B- / C+

A.B.A.: A,A,C,B,C,C = 470 (78.3) = C+

Zappa: B,B,B,B,C,C = 460 (76.6) = C+ / C

Venom: B,B,C,B,B,C = 460 (76.6) = C+ / C

Robo-Ky: C,B,B,B,C,C = 450 (75) = C

OS: B,B,C,B,C,C = 450 (75) = C

Faust: C,A,C,B,C,C = 450 (75) = C

Sol: B,C,C,C,C,C = 430 (71.6) = C- / D+

Ky: B,C,C,C,C,C = 430 (71.6) = C- / D+

Dizzy: C,B,C,C,C,C = 430 (71.6) C- / D+

Chipp: C,C,C,C,D,C = 410 (68.3) = D+

I-No: D,C,C,C,D,C = 400 (66.6) = D+ / D

Anji: C,D,D,D,C,C = 390 (65) = D

Bridget: D,D,D,D,D,D = 360 (60) = D- / F

Johnny: D,D,D,D,D,D = 360 (60) = D- / F

With Ogawa's Tier List Included:

Eddie: 700 (100) = S

Testament: 698 (99.7) = S- / A+

Slayer: 648 (92.6) = A-

Potemkin: 642 (91.7) = A-

Jam: 628 (89.7) = A- / B+

Baiken : 625 (89.3) = A- / B+

Millia: 605 (86.4) = B+ / B

May: 605 (86.4) = B+ / B

Axl: 568 (81.1) = B-

A.B.A.: 562 (80.3) = B- / C+

Venom: 552 (78.9) = C+

Zappa: 548 (78.3) = C+

Robo-Ky: 542 (77.4) = C+

OS: 542 (77.4) = C+

Faust: 538 (76.9) = C+ / C

Sol: 522 (74.6) = C / C-

Ky: 518 (74) = C / C-

Dizzy: 518 (74) = C / C-

Chipp: 502 (71.7) = C

I-No: 488 (69.7) = C- / D+

Anji: 478 (68.3) = D+

Bridget: 448 (64) = D / D-

Johnny: 442 (63.1) = D / D-

Rounded to Whole Numbers then Rounded to Grade:

Eddie = 100 = S

Testament = 100 = S

Slayer = 93 = A- (+1)

Potemkin = 92 = A-

Jam = 90 = A- / B+

Baiken = 89 = B+ (+1)

Millia = 86 = B (+1)

May = 86 = B (+1)

Axl = 81 = B- (-1)

A.B.A. = 80 = B- / C+

Venom = 79 = C+ (+1)

Zappa = 78 = C+

Robo-Ky = 77 = C+ (-1)

Order-Sol = 77 = C+ (-1)

Faust = 77 = C+ (-1)

Sol = 75 = C

Ky = 74 = C (-1)

Dizzy = 74 = C (-1)

Chipp = 72 = C-

I-No = 70 = C- / D+

Anji = 68 = D+

Bridget = 64 = D (-1)

Johnny = 63 = D- (+1)

Averaged Tier List:

S: Eddie, Testament

A-: Slayer, Potemkin

A-/B+: Jam

B+: Baiken

B: Millia, May

B-: Axl

B-/C+: A.B.A.

C+: Venom, Zappa, Robo-Ky, Order-Sol, Faust

C: Sol, Ky, Dizzy

C-: Chipp

C-/D+: I-No

D+: Anji

D: Bridget

D-: Johnny

More Simplified and if we just round up the in-between characters (Jam/ABA/I-No)

S: Eddie, Testament

A: Slayer, Potemkin > Jam

B: Baiken > Millia, May > Axl > A.B.A.

C: Venom, Zappa, Robo-Ky, Order-Sol, Faust > Sol, Ky, Dizzy > Chipp > I-No

D: Anji > Bridget > Johnny

-The only "change" with Ogawa's list included is Venom ever so slightly passes Zappa, which since they were tied in the initial list if I switched places for them it wouldn't be a "noticeable" change at all.

-And I guess before rounding and simplifying things you could say Eddie pulled slightly above Testament.

ADDED:

Tier List based on how much the "difference" is between the characters, if we just say +1 difference = a new tier.

S: Eddie, Testament

(diff. S and A+ = 7.1)

A+: Slayer, Potemkin

(diff. A+ and A = 2)

A: Jam, Baiken

(diff. A and A- = 2.9)

A-: Millia, May

(diff. A- and B+ = 5.3)

B+: Axl, A.B.A.

(diff. B+ and B = 1.4)

B: Venom, Zappa

(diff. B and B- = 1.4)

B-: Robo-Ky, Order-Sol, Faust

(diff. B- and C+ = 2.9)

C+: Sol, Ky, Dizzy

(diff. C+ and C = 2.3)

C: Chipp

(diff. C and C- = 2)

C-: I-No

(diff. C- and D+ = 1.4)

D+: Anji

(diff. D+ and D = 4.3)

D: Bridget, Johnny

Simplified:

S: Eddie, Testament

>>>>>>>

A: Slayer, Potemkin >> Jam, Baiken >>> Millia, May

>>>>>

B: Axl, A.B.A. > Venom, Zappa > Robo-Ky, Order-Sol, Faust

>>>

C: Sol, Ky, Dizzy >> Chipp >> I-No

>

D: Anji >>>> Bridget, Johnny

-Doing it this way does change up the tier list slightly than just the Averaged out one.

-Baiken, Millia, May move up to A. Venom, Zappa, Robo-Ky, Order-Sol, Faust move up to B.

I personally can't comment since I've never played GG competitively, but going by those other tier lists and what I've read or heard from people, it at least appears to remain "accurate" for what it's worth.

Edited by zeth07
Fixed to include May.

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You forgot May in the last few lists there, Zeth.

Fixed and thank you. It was because as I was doing the numbers her's was the same as Millia so I must've missed her.

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I find this a fascinating discussion: that characters should interact so well that only style remains to difference the winners from the losers. This, I think, the ultimate level any fighting game would aspire to.

To go a bit off-topic here... I'm unfortunately not all that well versed in GG, but if someone would illuminate me on why it's the kind of game it is, and why, in the end, only style would matter, it would be very appreciated!

Also, what is implied by "style"? Does this mean I could play an offensive character mostly defensively and still win out in the end? Or is it something else?

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It's the kind of game where you pick Testament a character and push buttons then collect money.

In some cases, if you play offensively on Baiken you are asking to get hurt. It might be hype as hell and you'll cool like Nerina, but it's generally a bad idea to do anything but abuse em and confuse em.

BTW: I don't think averaging out or centering the tiers of the cast really reflects their true level. Matchups change, metagame changes, people get used to shit.

We really shouldn't do anything other than build a new list considering the current version, technology and meta-game.

Edited by Star-Demon

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I find this a fascinating discussion: that characters should interact so well that only style remains to difference the winners from the losers. This, I think, the ultimate level any fighting game would aspire to.

To go a bit off-topic here... I'm unfortunately not all that well versed in GG, but if someone would illuminate me on why it's the kind of game it is, and why, in the end, only style would matter, it would be very appreciated!

Also, what is implied by "style"? Does this mean I could play an offensive character mostly defensively and still win out in the end? Or is it something else?

Strong offensive tools throughout the cast along with a wide array of defensive system mechanics mean that no character is really left severely lacking. Also, everyone has pretty decent normals at least and a way to punish bad jumpins. GG is also a very momentum based game thanks to most of the cast having a decent okizeme that leads back into itself if you fail to block it (I guess it's called a vortex since sf4). This, combined with fairly high damage means a few right guesses with any character and the round could be yours regardless of what the match was looking like previously.

Not gonna try to interpret what he means by style.

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Perhaps it'd be a worthy endeavor for DL to work on a new tier list? It may not carry the same weight as a list created by our glorious Japanese overlords, but at least it'd be more recent and possibly more relevant to US gameplay.

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Good Enough Tier: [everyone]

It's been said over and over. All the characters can compete, and there aren't enough high level players in America for us to make concrete judgments on every matchup. We've relied on the Japanese so long because they have what we don't. Besides which, even a completely accurate tier list won't change how you play the game. Let it go.

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Strong offensive tools throughout the cast along with a wide array of defensive system mechanics mean that no character is really left severely lacking. Also, everyone has pretty decent normals at least and a way to punish bad jumpins. GG is also a very momentum based game thanks to most of the cast having a decent okizeme that leads back into itself if you fail to block it (I guess it's called a vortex since sf4). This, combined with fairly high damage means a few right guesses with any character and the round could be yours regardless of what the match was looking like previously.

Not gonna try to interpret what he means by style.

Thanks!

It's interesting that the system works despite how wrong it can potentially turn out. I hope they don't change too much when re-releasing GGAC on PSN so as not to upset this delicate balance.

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Not gonna try to interpret what he means by style.

Just to clarify- I was referring to finding something that works and sticking with it. Every character can be played effectively in different ways.

Due to the relatively small group of elite GGAC players, gimmicky play is rarely punished correctly and is great to throw in your game.

Thanks for answering Sophisticat.

Edited by Hellmonkey

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