Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
pulsr

[CS] Beginner Mechanics (The more you know!)

Recommended Posts

When I summon a cloud around one full hop's worth of distance in the air, I will try to barrier ASAP, and the barrier will actually come out, but then around when I hit the ground I'll get hit by Ragna's 6A or something while continuing to hold barrier.
Just like GG j.D attacks, any D attacks or specials in the air will give your character landing recovery - the next time you land after doing one, you will be unable to block for a while (I think 8 frames, could be wrong).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

13/60ths of a second is well within the norms of human reaction time. That said every little bit of extra time helps, especially if you're expecting something else.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Alright, time for me to ask a noob question. How to capitalize on an IB? Are there any specific moves that work/don't work after IB? Can I IB>normal attack?

Funny how the example in the OP explains it's possible to stuff "Hell's...!" and when I made the training dummy spam me with Hell's Fang even though I IBed every hit (not too hard since I was driving the dummy after all) I couldn't do anything with Jin to stop the "...Fang!!" part and got guard broken time and time again. Been wondering since then if I was trying to do something wrong or just doing the correct thing wrong. Should I be trying IB>DP C after Ragna's HF?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Look at the frame data. Hell's is -4 on normal block. On instant block it's -9 (IB lets you recover five frames faster, so instead of him being able to move four frames after you he has to wait nine.) Then look at what moves you can use that are below 9 frames of startup. I'm pretty sure you can throw, but it depends on the throw range.

Here's the frame data: http://dustloop.com/guides/bbcs/

SD (static difference) shows the recovery on a move, if you don't cancel it into another move. You would need to look at Jin's moves and what character you're trying to stop.

A jab will probably always work if it's a move that can be IB punished, but some punishes you could do better with.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

DP is always a decent choice as it's invulnerable. Just be careful with it, you will get slammed for the recovery, and Jin's isn't very fast. Use your fastest moves. In this case 5A should be sufficient. Also, you can react to him going into the followup and block, then punish hard.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Seems I was doing the right thing wrong then (failed to do the DP input on time perhaps? likely since I've been playing with my left thumb injured ever since I got this game). Thanks for the answers.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Funny how the example in the OP explains it's possible to stuff "Hell's...!" and when I made the training dummy spam me with Hell's Fang even though I IBed every hit (not too hard since I was driving the dummy after all) I couldn't do anything with Jin to stop the "...Fang!!" part and got guard broken time and time again. Been wondering since then if I was trying to do something wrong or just doing the correct thing wrong. Should I be trying IB>DP C after Ragna's HF?
You're using Hell's Fang with the additional attack, while the OP was only referring to Hell's Fang by itself. In the frame data, we can see that the Hell's Fang followup can be started on the first frame of Hell's Fang's recovery. With some math, we find that if you IB Hell's Fang, even though you get the opportunity to act 9 frames before Ragna can do anything else, he can start the followup 24 frames (33 frames of recovery minus your 9 frames of advantage if he doesn't cancel to the followup) before you can do anything. Then, the followup only has 23 frames of startup... meaning even if you IB, if Ragna acts quickly enough the followup will hit you before you have a chance to do anything, even invincible moves like DPs.

Disclaimer: I'm not totally sure about my frame data math here, things may be off by one frame or so, but I'm pretty sure it's airtight.

So in a real situation, the game becomes a bit more complicated. If Ragna does Hell's Fang and you instant block, and you watch to see that he doesn't rapid cancel or perform the additional attack, then you can punish with any move that has less than 9 frames of startup, like Jin's 5A. If he quickly performs the additional attack, you won't be able to punish, since he'll hit you while you're still in blockstun. However, if you keep blocking, even without an instant block you'll be able to punish the followup with anything with less than 24 frames of startup, or less than 29 if you IB... though again, this is only if he doesn't RC. Also, if Ragna delays the followup at all (to watch and see if you're blocking, for example), then a gap opens during which you could use something fast or invincible to stuff the additional attack.

In conclusion, check the frame data first, and don't try to practice IBing and punishing airtight blockstrings because you can't. Instead get the computer to do just the first part of Hell's Fang and punish with something fast, like 5A, since that's a situation that's more likely to crop up in a real match. If Ragna has heat, then he'll probably just rapid cancel anyway, which means he DEFINITELY recovers before you, whether he's hitting you with the first part or the followup.

EDIT: Perhaps someone with more knowledge of how frame data works can help me here... if frame one of recovery is cancellable into the followup, and the followup has 23 frames of startup, does that mean that what would normally be the first frame of recovery is the first frame of the followup's startup, or does the first frame of recovery happen no matter what, and then startup of the followup begins if the command has been inputted? It's only a one-frame difference but it could be pretty important.

Edited by Brother Mojo

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ah, that explains a lot, thank you. I thought I wouldn't need to worry about the frame data until I'm halfway to being decent at the game, but it seems I've got some match-up studying to do before I can win with anyone who has an idea of what they're doing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So I have a question. What in the bloody puss spewing hell does TK stand for? It's listed in the Hakumen thread but I can't find an explanation anywhere I look. Maybe I'm blind. But it's listed in some combo's like this --- TK FC Hotaru > falling j.2C, 5C, 2C > Gurren, hop 5B > sj.A > sj.B > jc > j.2A, j.C ---

Thanks guys

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

TK = Tiger Knee.

Comes from Sagat's Tiger Knee command in SF2. (d, df, f, uf)

In # notation it would be 2147 or 2369.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

More specifically (at least in that case), it refers to performing an aerial move that way even though it doesn't have to be. If you input 2147B as Hakumen, the 7 will make him jump backward, but the game will still read the 214...B as the input for Hotaru. This is generally the easiest/fastest way to perform aerial moves from a grounded position, since it will be performed immediately after you jump.

If you do it too quickly, though, Hakumen won't have actually jumped yet and you'll get Renka instead. Press B a couple of frames after 2147 rather than immediately as you hit 7.

Edited by Brother Mojo

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

THE GREAT PROLOGUE TO THE CIRCUMSTANCES OF THIS QUESTION:

Hi DL, lurker here, like just picked up CS for fun not quite a week ago and haven't stepped online yet. I've seriously kinda lurked the shit out of (the) fighting game scene(s) for a few years, the genre's pretty much my favorite spectator sport and I may have a wee bit of experience playing SSBB and TF2 competitively, so I at least feel like I can find my way in the mindgame department. I'm a relatively novice 2Dfightinggameplayer in terms of actual multiplayer experience, though I have something like a couple of weeks' worth of afternoons in total time spent grinding training mode King of Fighters 98 Ultimate Match and (much less so

:sweatdrop:) Accent Core. Leaning towards Litchi and Makoto not that it's a big deal BUT ANYWAY

I'm probably imagining things/overanalyzing/having a bad day for it, but I've been having some mindfucky problems with execution on pad. Normally I wouldn't treat it like a big deal and go to training mode in silence, but I'm having more trouble just getting motions like 63214 and 2141236, etc out than I did playing KoF 98 or XXAC, and combos take me a lot longer to get down, piece by piece (haven't passed Litchi challenge 3 quite yet). This seems, uh, weird :psyduck:

Is the correct answer:

A. Just keep going till you have the muscle memory

, scrub

B. The PS3 wireless controller's pad will take inputs a bit different from the wired PS2's, may need to adjust

C. Keep a cool head and wait, BB's execution is going to be slower-paced/has different input windows

D. Get the fuck off the pad

, scrub

E. Some of the above

F. All of the above

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Lots of people actually play pad and it doesn't actually make you any worse for it. Of course there are a lot of advantages to playing stick but a good pad has its strong points too. As for your questions:

A) If you're having trouble with the inputs it's not an issue of muscle memory. I've found that the PS3 pad likes to drop diagonals (unsurprising, since it has no actual pressable diagonals) so you have to make sure you're actually hitting those inputs. BB's pretty lenient on some of the inputs but it will not shortcut you if you drop a diagonal like SF4 does. Turn on input display in training mode and see if that's the problem.

B) It actually does. I've found the PS2 pad is either a lot more stiff while the Sixaxis is a lot looser, and the DS3 is somewhere in between.

C) If it's not the diagonal thing then you might want to consider investing in a Saturn pad or something.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Kinda new to bb recent convert from sf and mvc (broken online overhyped garbage). The learning curb is kinda high in this game and as a pad player was wondering what advice you could give am trying to main Bang and Hazama.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Practicing combos to the point where if you land any hit that you auto-hitconfirm into the rest of the combo without blinking an eye is a great way to quickly improve at a combo heavy game like BB imo.

But besides that, check out the character specific sections for some nice tips/tricks and watch match videos.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I will practice combos ad nauseum then. Another thing is defence in this game I seem to get beat down yet I am blocking. Scrubby I know but sf makes defence much easier and I am a recent convert.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have a question on rapid cancelling and when to use it. I know it helps you continue a combo, or stops you from using a combo that you are trying to get out of. I've just never used it in battle, and am wondering about the advantages and disadvantages of using it, knowing when to trigger it and use it effectively. Feel free to PM me about it :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

To lazy to PM, i'll write it here instead.

About Rapid Canceling...

Advantage :

1. Extend the combo / Pressure.

2. Getting Out from disadvantage Situation eg: Blocked DP... without RC, you'll get punished hardcore, with RC it'll put you on the advantage instead to continue pressure.

Disadvantage :

1. Your Heat/Tension Gain will get stalled for few second after a rapid Cancel.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sign in to follow this  

×