BB:CS Match-Up Chart

[Narcowski]

It's not slow, and it's not even visible. 14 frames is still unreactable.

14f is well within reason for the majority of people. The problem is that the solution (jumping) takes too much extra time, not that it's hard to see the throw coming.

[Dacidbro]

You're invulnerable to throws the very frame you start jumping. So that's actually not it.

Unless you mean taking your brain and saying "You have to jump" then bringing it to your fingers and doing it. Which.. is what I've been saying.

[-Ladon-]

it's very simple: everyone identifies it as a mixup and tries to get out or tries to do some other shit instead of just blocking.

it's funny when I hear things like "americans don't know how to block" and all this other jazz when you see our japanese counterparts fall for the same tricks, it's a mixup, no one's going to guess it right 100% of the time, even on reactions the fastest ever recorded in a fighting game(tomo in sf2) were around 10-12 frames -when they're looking for it- so you can shave off at least 5-10 for people who don't expect it and there you have people getting hit by 20-25 frame mids.

people have patterns, when they're obvious to the person your mixup becomes shit because you're doing -the same thing- without even realizing it. Hit confirming kinda falls into the same pattern but most people hit confirming are LOOKING for it again allowing them to react to it properly.

there's not much to be said, 14f is reactable to if you're looking for it but if it's used smart enough you will fall for it no matter how fast you think you are

[FunkyP]

Yeah I seem to be the only one willing to argue, and everyone thinks they're right.

I guess all I have to say is if 13 f is reactable why doesn't everyone block much more telegraphed overheads that are 5+ frames slower

East Coast players can block telegraphed overheads

[Dacidbro]

it's very simple: everyone identifies it as a mixup and tries to get out or tries to do some other shit instead of just blocking.

it's funny when I hear things like "americans don't know how to block" and all this other jazz when you see our japanese counterparts fall for the same tricks, it's a mixup, no one's going to guess it right 100% of the time, even on reactions the fastest ever recorded in a fighting game(tomo in sf2) were around 10-12 frames -when they're looking for it- so you can shave off at least 5-10 for people who don't expect it and there you have people getting hit by 20-25 frame mids.

people have patterns, when they're obvious to the person your mixup becomes shit because you're doing -the same thing- without even realizing it. Hit confirming kinda falls into the same pattern but most people hit confirming are LOOKING for it again allowing them to react to it properly.

there's not much to be said, 14f is reactable to if you're looking for it but if it's used smart enough you will fall for it no matter how fast you think you are

Yeah, and that's the only thing I'm saying. You can not specifically react to it. You have to yomi it. That's all I've been saying the whole time.

FunkyP, Lordknight and 10stars could have fooled me at EVO.

[A.X.I.S.]

It's not slow, and it's not even visible. 14 frames is still unreactable. 14 or 4 is the same thing, honestly. The only difference is that ticking in GG was better, because there was no pink throw garbage.

actually in BB most grabs are 6-7F.

tagers command grabs are 6F and 11F respectably but bangs is 14F.

for a grab its fucking slow infact most command grabs are slow compared to normal grabs.

so dacid, bangs command grab is probably one of the slowest if not the slowest command grab in the game.

but like ladon says it works because you can't guess 100% of the time.

[Spirit Juice]

Yeah.. so you're agreeing that you can't react to it? Bang's "set ups" are full of lows and can just continue into other pressure and high low, so you can't react to the set up either.

I'm saying you react to set ups. Like, there are certain set ups you could possibly react to if you are expecting them. Unfortunately it's hard because there are 1) a lot of them, and 2) you put yourself at risk when trying to get out of them. That's what mix up does.

[Dacidbro]

I understand the speed of moves, Sol, but you don't understand that it's so invisible and used off of the correct blockstrings is identically fast, in practical scenarios.

Gatling'd off of 2A blockstun you hit the 7 frame tick window perfectly. That means it's a perfect tick grab, and is as fast as any tick grab could have been. Setting that scenario up is EXTREMELY easy for Bang, unlike Tager.

Spirit, I know, but Bang's setups are literally invisible if you're willing to burn a few nails. So you're really guessing.

[Spirit Juice]

I don't know about that. I'm pretty sure if BB's throws didn't suck and were instant like GG throws, Bang's painfully slow command grab would be thrown out of all the time, or Bang would find it much more difficult to land. Game mechanics make his slow command grab better than it actually is.

[Dacidbro]

I agree with that, but only because you would be looking for mash out grabs and other fast moves simply because they are very good, instead of reacting directly to it.

[huey253]

I don't know about that. I'm pretty sure if BB's throws didn't suck and were instant like GG throws, Bang's painfully slow command grab would be thrown out of all the time, or Bang would find it much more difficult to land. Game mechanics make his slow command grab better than it actually is.

poor SSFIV Makato.

Noel's command grab is slower i think?

bang's 7 frame air command grab is pretty damn good, and hard to escape if tick into properly.

[A.X.I.S.]

I understand the speed of moves, Sol, but you don't understand that it's so invisible and used off of the correct blockstrings is identically fast, in practical scenarios.

Gatling'd off of 2A blockstun you hit the 7 frame tick window perfectly. That means it's a perfect tick grab, and is as fast as any tick grab could have been. Setting that scenario up is EXTREMELY easy for Bang, unlike Tager.

Spirit, I know, but Bang's setups are literally invisible if you're willing to burn a few nails. So you're really guessing.

I never had a problem seeing bang start the tick, reacting to it accordingly is a whole different story.

best thing I can do in a situation with 2A tick is barrier and hope you get pushed out of range to make it wiff.

again anyone can see the move start up, reacting is a whole different leap from there.

also I never had a problem getting tick throws in unless I am being zoned.

[Dacidbro]

Yeah, but that's all I was saying. "invisible" in this case meaning far too hard to see, understand, react correctly in a blindingly fast pressure string with so many hits that could tick from. And when you get too focused on that, the overheads roll in.

[FunkyP]

poor SSFIV Makato.

Noel's command grab is slower i think?

It was 27 frames in CT, i don't think it changed much. It was combo filler only though. No matter who you are, you can react to 27 frames.

[DC]

I think the justification is that it looks like a jump, only hits standing opponents, and a lot of players stand on reaction to an opponent jumping.

Idk it's already been said but you can't look at frame data alone when discussing reaction time.

[FunkyP]

I think the justification is that it looks like a jump, only hits standing opponents, and a lot of players stand on reaction to an opponent jumping.

Idk it's already been said but you can't look at frame data alone when discussing reaction time.

F-Miyako's 22C in MB looks like a jump, Noel's command grab works as a gimmick mixup if the other player has never seen it before. At high level play, people are gonna wanna look for whatever openings they can find to escape or retaliate. Now in a game with a lot of hitstun and chain blockstrings 10-14 frames might seem small, but twice that amount, I mean c'mon really. It might just be the most telegraphed command grab in the history of them.

[DC]

I never said it was particularly good, but you can't just say "It's 27 frames, it's slow and will never hit."

Anyways I don't think Muzzle Flitter should ever be mentioned in this topic again.

[FunkyP]

I never said it was particularly good, but you can't just say "It's 27 frames, it's slow and will never hit."

Anyways I don't think Muzzle Flitter should ever be mentioned in this topic again.

Agreed, Noel really doesnt belong in a matchup discussion anyways ROFL

[Eclipse]

When can we expect an up to date Matchup Chart for CS including Mu-12? Or even with the other 14?

[Kain]

6 months from now (arcade patching and all), plus how long it takes the Japanese to figure out everyone's tier listing, which should be like 2 weeks at the very least.

[Asakura]

It'll be very interesting to see where everyone falls with the balance patch. I wouldn't expect too much to change around but there could be some neat little changes that spice things up.

[St1ckBuG]

I never said it was particularly good, but you can't just say "It's 27 frames, it's slow and will never hit."

Anyways I don't think Muzzle Flitter should ever be mentioned in this topic again.

So what do you do if they stand block again?

[Zero000]

So what do you do if they stand block again?

What are mixups?????????

[qwerty]

he's so busy sucking off hellmonkey on irc that he's forgotten how to play...

[FunkyP]

So what do you do if they stand block again?

3c is 19(faster in cs?) frames 214a is 27, if they're gonna stand there and take the command grab, they'll stand there and take a 3c. Less risk(not really, but faster) much higher reward.