BB:CS Match-Up Chart

[-Ladon-]

3c is 19(faster in cs?) frames 214a is 27, if they're gonna stand there and take the command grab, they'll stand there and take a 3c. Less risk(not really, but faster) much higher reward.

Doesn't 3C leave you crouching still on block? sounds like a worse option

[FunkyP]

Doesn't 3C leave you crouching still on block? sounds like a worse option

at least a blocked 3c has some blockstun so you can rapid, a whiffed 214A does not

this is all moot though because we're discussing how to use extremely high risk gimmicks in mixups, both options are terrible. If someone was stand blocking a nice fast 2b will net you a good 2k with little risk.

[Dacidbro]

Both options are below average, but not terrible. They're extremely high damage options, and one of them you can rapid on failure. Considering you get 50 meter per combo, that's not a bad thing to consider.

[whitevoid]

When can we expect an up to date Matchup Chart for CS including Mu-12? Or even with the other 14?

Might as well start discussing Mu.

Just throwing this out there (i.e. it's probably wrong, but it's somewhere to start for discussion purposes)

Bang, Slight disadvantage. Has DP for defense to defend against general brokenness at least.

Litchi, Disadvantage. Should be stronger at ideal range.

Ragna, Slight disadvantage... maybe even. Again, DP at least

Hakumen, Disadvantage. Getting cut is probably so bad you never want to use drive out in the open

Arakune, Advantage, lasers shoot everwhere

Carl, Even... maybe slight advantage, DP looks like it'll cover both sides, lasers keep shooting even if hit, can hit Carl from behind Nirvana, with enough steins can probably catch him off his little dash things

Jin, Even

Hazama, Slight advantage, lasers should trump his zoning game, and can probably live happier playing the mid-range game

Taokaka, Even

Lamda, Slight disadvantage, swords probably better than lasers head to head at range

Noel, Even... maybe slight disadvantage, might be able to drive through some of her lasers, but then again it's still noel

Tsubaki, Even, both need set-up time

Tager, Advantage, he's a big hit box and she has lots of lasers that shoot

Rachel, Advantage, Mu actually does damage.

5 disadvantage, 4 advantage would place her somewhere in mid-tier which sounds about right. She's not top. Nor is she's near top. But she can do good damage without having serious liabilites in general. Hakumen is the only one out of the top that screws her over specifically.

[Mightfo]

Hakumen, Disadvantage. Getting cut is probably so bad you never want to use drive out in the open

Arakune, Advantage, lasers shoot everwhere

Hazama, Slight advantage, lasers should trump his zoning game, and can probably live happier playing the mid-range game

Tsubaki, Even, both need set-up time

While hakumen will hurt her approach, she could time 6c to beat 4c, unless there's a void near him obviously. Her best bet is to set up steins in an optimal fashion for 236D, wait for the void to go away, get knockdown, then use her laserbounce special for oki.

You overestimate how good the lasers are for zoning. While the 236D laserbounce will be good for keeping arakune/hazama in control, it consumes the stein, has a path they could possibly evade, and has significant startup. Better for oki when it comes to characters who can get up really high really quickly or teleport through stuff. The normal laser shots aren't that great.

Tsubaki's 236 series is apparently quite annoying for mu.

edit: underestimate is a pretty poor typo for overestimate.

[Narcowski]

Most of those sound about right to me, except Tsubaki. Mu can make it very hard for Tsubaki to get charge while working on her serups, whereas Tsubaki can't do too much to keep Mu from setting up if she wants to build charge.

[GenoWhirl]

Mu setting steins? SHIELD RUSHHH

Is this even a viable option

[Keo-bas]

Some how I thought tager would do find agaisnt Mu. And Mu would ruin toakak game plan with dp.

[Mightfo]

Mu setting steins? SHIELD RUSHHH

Is this even a viable option

Heroic Legacy says Tsubaki's 236 allows her to punish Mu or at least get past the laser's target area when she tries to set lasers outside of knockdown. I think he might be right, too, since the lasers certainly don't fire quick enough to stop shieldrushes or some IADs. It's not like Hakumen's 4c void attempts which you should be able to always punish due to the laser's delay if you just limit yourself to one stein. Though, perhaps Mu can stuff 236s consistently and make Tsubaki respect laser setups.

Some how I thought tager would do find agaisnt Mu. And Mu would ruin toakak game plan with dp.

Most of this is still up in the air. 236D may be able to let Mu punish excessive sledging.

[whitevoid]

Most of those sound about right to me, except Tsubaki. Mu can make it very hard for Tsubaki to get charge while working on her serups, whereas Tsubaki can't do too much to keep Mu from setting up if she wants to build charge.

As has been stated, Tsubaki has some anti-projectile tools that can help her deal with the match-up. Personally, I think there's a lot of reasons it could go either way, but they all seem to be fairly marginal imo so it ends up even. Dashing through projectiles is just a mutual baiting situation. Relatively, she can do something if Mu locks her up with steins by charging in laser gaps, so i view it as an "it can only be a positive" b/c you don't have to use that time to charge if you're going to get punished for it. And she does have a proper DP if she burns a charge stock, so it all rounds about to being even in my eyes. It's difficult to say at this point how heavily either of them could leverage their strengths in the match-up from a theory standpoint.

While hakumen will hurt her approach, she could time 6c to beat 4c, unless there's a void near him obviously. Her best bet is to set up steins in an optimal fashion for 236D, wait for the void to go away, get knockdown, then use her laserbounce special for oki.

You overestimate how good the lasers are for zoning. While the 236D laserbounce will be good for keeping arakune/hazama in control, it consumes the stein, has a path they could possibly evade, and has significant startup. Better for oki when it comes to characters who can get up really high really quickly or teleport through stuff. The normal laser shots aren't that great.

Tsubaki's 236 series is apparently quite annoying for mu.

edit: underestimate is a pretty poor typo for overestimate.

jC is where it's at. and when i say advantage i just mean 4/6, so the things you say are true. but I can't say that that's not advantage hakumen. 6C is hard to set-up if you can't dictate space, which she'll have trouble doing if she can't use steins. hakumen actually can play an up-close game with fast jabs with massive frame adv. I think of it like Hazama/Hakumen, where he shuts down a lot of Hazama's game but he still has some tools to work with (jayuki and... uhh... something else i guess).

well, i'm not necessarily saying that she's just going to zone him. but as i see it, at neutral pre-curse Arakune moving around trying to avoid direct contact while buliding meter is advantage Mu because her lasers can cover a lot of space (relatively at least). not to mention 6C as well. when she's pressing, he doesn't have much against her laser spam. and defensively, she has DP even if she does get cursed which knocks him far away. the main thing for him is just that he can go broke.

same thing here, neutral I don't think his drives are a big deal where her drive will be slightly more effective. defensively though, he has jayuki, but she can just play a range game to avoid that and he's not the best offensive character.

i don't really see how tager would do better against Mu than anyone else. i've always though sledging through projectiles is kind of a joke of an "answer" to them as sledge A is too short range, and sledge B is too slow. i've only really viewed them as being uesful against Noel (who oddly isn't a range character). other than that, I don't really see what he could have on her.

[Dacidbro]

Why would you laser bounce oki against Hakumen? That's just giving him a counter for 50 meter.

[Commanderoftroy]

Sledging through projectiles is completely viable should you read your opponent right. B sledge being slow is not an issue when its not in the middle of a combo, it has longer active frames to cover the screen all be it that it still has a maximum damage it can absorb. A sledge is much worse in most cases because of how bad the recovery frames are on it.

Sledging mindlessly will get you set up for a combo real fast against nearly any character zoning or not.

[whitevoid]

Sledging through projectiles is completely viable should you read your opponent right. B sledge being slow is not an issue when its not in the middle of a combo, it has longer active frames to cover the screen all be it that it still has a maximum damage it can absorb. A sledge is much worse in most cases because of how bad the recovery frames are on it.

Sledging mindlessly will get you set up for a combo real fast against nearly any character zoning or not.

If you're reading your opponent right, then anything that you do is fine. Reading the opponent is S-tier.

And how is Sledge being slow not an issue? It's THE issue since by the time the laser shoots Mu has already recovered. It's easy to say "if you make the right call with a move, it's a great move." My point is that it's much harder to make correct reads then wrong reads. Mu, however, doesn't need to make reads. She can just look at what you do.

[Commanderoftroy]

If you're reading your opponent right, then anything that you do is fine. Reading the opponent is S-tier.

And how is Sledge being slow not an issue? It's THE issue since by the time the laser shoots Mu has already recovered. It's easy to say "if you make the right call with a move, it's a great move." My point is that it's much harder to make correct reads then wrong reads. Mu, however, doesn't need to make reads. She can just look at what you do.

Wasn't at all saying you were wrong bud saying it being slow can be offset by reading your opponent, the recovery frames on Asledge are much worse than Bsledge. Yeah i would agree with ya reading your opponent makes anything safe. I was simply saying sledging through projectiles can be done safely and has its place. I can't speak on MU as i haven't played her,was speaking of zoning characters in general so that you may have me on that.

Reading your opponent is the only way to play tager effectively and get any type of wins if you are playing anything moderate level and above. I say that with the basis that he has less tools to deal with things than a majority of characters in the game.

[Dacidbro]

I don't care how well you read your opponent, there are circumstances where you will never be able to B sledge, circumstances where you should not B sledge (but might get lucky), and circumstances where it's really hard to say if you should or not.

I'd say most of Mu's laser shenanigans hit the second category, with certain moments of the last one. Got to be highly careful, and default to block a vast majority of the time.

[Commanderoftroy]

I don't care how well you read your opponent, there are circumstances where you will never be able to B sledge, circumstances where you should not B sledge (but might get lucky), and circumstances where it's really hard to say if you should or not.

I'd say most of Mu's laser shenanigans hit the second category, with certain moments of the last one. Got to be highly careful, and default to block a vast majority of the time.

I don't disagree at all dacid i would never say its always the right option, simply saying its not out of the question. I can't speak intelligently about MU, judging from the videos she would have an easier time baiting a sledge than most but hopefully it doesn't lead to huge damage like Lambda and others.

[-Ladon-]

Why would you laser bounce oki against Hakumen? That's just giving him a counter for 50 meter.

considering how much hakumen uses meter, I'd imagine you'd only use it when he's below 50% like a smart person would

[Dacidbro]

... No. It's giving Hakumen a FREE counter, for YOUR 50 meter. Try to keep up, please.

[Mightfo]

... No. It's giving Hakumen a FREE counter, for YOUR 50 meter. Try to keep up, please.

...What does 236D have to do with 50 meter? Are you confusing that with her super that also does "Laserbounce"?

[whitevoid]

to be fair, i thought you meant the super as well. in any case same principles apply, as he can just drive the lasers (and you keep your meter) which isn't the worst thing in the world, but it's not going to pull it into her favor.

[huey253]

i think hazama and taokaka vs mu will be disadvantaged for mu because both can easily escape her lockdown at any time.

[Mightfo]

i think hazama and taokaka vs mu will be disadvantaged for mu because both can easily escape her lockdown at any time.

They can deal well with her normal laser shots which aren't that good and are just to help her get at optimal range, but hazama and taokaka's drives aren't going to use them to escape with invincibility through her meaty 236D. Shoryukens and hakumen's frame 1 counters can beat that on wakeup, but Hazama/Tao's drives won't help them on wakeup lockdown.

236d = http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z1f2oyMig3c#t=0m18s It ignores her being hit, so it can interrupt pressure and combos. It goes from her body to her oldest stein to her newest one, then out of the last stein.(Toward the opponent?)

[huey253]

how is mu going to knockdown those two?

and why can't we factor in the fact that they just block on their wakeup, i mean, mu doesn't even have that great of mixup?

[whitevoid]

i think hazama and taokaka vs mu will be disadvantaged for mu because both can easily escape her lockdown at any time.

don't really know all that many details about Tao to be honest.

as for hazama even if he does, so what? i feel like she has a better mid-range game then he does.

[Mizzet]

Mu's 236d laser travels from her to the last stein she set out, then bounces in reverse order of summoning to the first (oldest) stein then to the opponent. So if you are smart about your stein placement you can keep it bouncing horizontally for a very long time, locking down a big area.