BB:CS Match-Up Chart

[soujiro seta]

I edited my post before you quoted, soz. But yes, I do think Tsubaki is better than Noel and Tager. Maybe not in every matchup but a better character over all.

But no, I don't think she's a good character. Kinda like a lesser of two evils thing, except like, lesser of two shit characters.

I use tager as well, not as a main but as a sub, and I know what noel can do. I main carl and tsubaki, and I will tell you this, you don't know what a bad character is like until you use her. You really have to like tsubaki to use her. Atleast rachel has potential. There is no such thing as potential with tsubaki, hell she has no solid....anything. It's all a bag of tricks and gimmicks. Except with the tools she has her tricks are terrible and everything she does puts her at a disadvantage.

You're opponent can play like a scrub, and you'll have to play like a god with tsubaki just to keep up, talk less of even winning. Lol, ofcourse I'm exaggerating but you get the point.

[DC]

Yes, which is why shes a bad character, along with Tager Noel and Rachel.

Why do people think I'm saying she's a good character?

[soujiro seta]

Exactly.

1. I'm well aware of her damage but she has no safe way of getting them. If you were to try to play Noel as safe as possible your average damage is around 1.2k.

2. Thus, if you want to do damage you have to start guessing, fishing for random 5d/2d hits (and note that 2d is no longer an overhead).

3. Good yomi and IBing helps with fishing for those hits, but at the end of the day, MOST of the time you're not 100% sure that it's gonna hit. That's guessing, that's bad.

1. Noel can actually play safe, whether or not she is dealing enough damage isn't the point. Tsubaki's entire game puts her at a disadvantage and is risky. Even her so called D based moves put her at a disadvantage on block. Also, I don't think you understand what I mean when I say that "You'll miss normals at point blank range, be it during a combo or trying to apply pressure, and get punished for it". Safe and tsubaki should never be used in the same sentence.

2. Not only do you need charge to deal any sort of worth while damage, you deal any damage based of gimmicks. Not a good idea. Noel average 3k per combo and proceeds to continue her mixup after wards, no dealy. Tsu averages 3k per combo with charge and has to end her mixup just to get another charge to hopefully deal another 3k. Did I also mention that tsu's fatal counter is useless, unlike noel's, and nothing she does has any invincibility, unlike noel's drives?

3. IB punish? with tsu. Sorry I don't understand you can't IB punish anything with normals like that. Oh you're talking about noel, my bad, lol.

Lol, tsu's entire gameplan is gimmicky, and as you said, (with a twist), "at the end of the day, ALL of the time you're not 100% sure that it's gonna hit. You'll even get punished for whiffing normals during combos or while applying pressure at pt blank range". You're opponent can only fall for the same gimmicks so many times.

[soujiro seta]

Yes, which is why shes a bad character, along with Tager Noel and Rachel.

Why do people think I'm saying she's a good character?

I never said you said she's a good character. Its the fact that you're including tager and noel in the same caliber as tsubaki. Rachel isn't bad, its just her damage. Tsu is a bad character, period.

[A.X.I.S.]

tager is so decent now...he's actually solid.

just give him back his damage and tager will be worshiped.

tsubaki is shit.

noel is lesser shit.

and rachel is the queen of shit.

[Zoogstin]

while tager is not necessarily bad he's not solid in the sense that he can't zone or play keep-away. Either the opponent does their darnest to stay away from him or they have a field day and dance all over him with rushdown.

[Lord Knight]

tager is so decent now...he's actually solid.

just give him back his damage and tager will be worshiped.

tsubaki is shit.

noel is lesser shit.

and rachel is the queen of shit.

bolded for lol

your shit tiers are ordered wrong

[Afrikaan]

bolded for lol

your shit tiers are ordered wrong

I don't think he needs CT levels of damage back, but I'll be damned if he shouldn't be doing the some of most combo damage, being y'know, a damn grappler and all. Not being outdamaged by a good portion of the cast, espicially with dumb shit like Bang's 5A in nearly equal damage to a full Tager magnetism combo and Litchi's 4K off of anything into silly corner oki or Ragna;s 4K BE loop combos. That's should be his tradeoff for such crappy mobility.

Like say, slap on an extra .5 to 1K on his magnetism combos via proation changes, and reduce some of the damage from the others, and it's fine IMO.

[A.X.I.S.]

oh let me fix it for you LK.

noel is one of the many little shits that exist in the shit kingdom with her lame normals and her getting damage off stupid which is fine.

rachel is the queen of the greater shit kingdom with her low damage and sucky normals that only get slightly better with wind.

lastly tsubaki is god of shit, I mean horrible damage, horrible blockstrings, overhead with a sound cue I am not letting that go, and her inability to have both damage and charge...she is truly the god of shit.

good concept on paper but she went wrong with everything.

why does tsubaki have 1 invul DP when jin has 3? why does her combo have to do lame damage for so little? how come she has a mugen skill which is utterly pointless...someone answer these for god sakes, tell me what was arc thinking...I know japan is having a wtf tea party at tsubaki's expense.

edit: all I want for tager is a 60% or 70% combo rate, you know give RC combo's a point.

[crazycrackers]

I dunno. Rachel herself isn't terrible, if she could do some legitimate damage she could be...respectable. Tsubaki on the other hand, as a character, she's just terrible.

[Spirit Juice]

while tager is not necessarily bad he's not solid in the sense that he can't zone or play keep-away. Either the opponent does their darnest to stay away from him or they have a field day and dance all over him with rushdown.

Holy shit. You mean he plays like a grappler?!

[AdamNW]

I think you guys might be overstating Rachel's shittiness. She's no doubt bad, but I wouldn't say she's the "queen of shit". That title goes to Tsubaki. She has terrible everything and doesn't do damage worth shit. No projectiles unless you want to make yourself a sitting duck and charge for that useless piece of shit. She has maybe one or two "good" combos, but they do next to no damage. She feels like a pointless addition, honestly.

I never find myself charging period when I use her because it isn't even remotely safe (except for the air depending on the circumstance) and the payoff just isn't good.

[crazycrackers]

Agreed, Rachel sort of has the basis to be alright. If she did legit damage she wouldn't be that bad. Tsubaki on the other hand, she's just shit. Period. Her entire game is just a bag of tricks...shitty, shitty tricks.

[smooshman]

edit: all I want for tager is a 60% or 70% combo rate, you know give RC combo's a point.

what does a characters combo rate determine? I never found that.... I would assume it has something to do with tech times.

[Narcowski]

what does a characters combo rate determine? I never found that.... I would assume it has something to do with tech times.

It's just another layer of proration.

If Tager had two 1000 damage attack with 100 p1 and p2 that could gattling (or link) into each other, he would do 1000 with the first hit at 400 with the second due to his character combo rate (40%). Arakune, on the other hand, would do 1000 and 1000 with the same attacks (100% ccr).

[Manta]

Quite apart from a lot of consensus here, I don't think it's extra damage that will truly fix Tager's poor standing. All that really accomplishes is pushing him up the tier list a bit, whilst still having the same problems against the same characters as he does now. He needs a new move or two, gadget finger and 4D were big steps in the right direction. If he had a new anti air move (6D?) against people crossing him up and possibly something resembling a decent aerial moveset (he has a few useful moves, but very little combo potential or self defense up there) then it'd cover his weaknesses against characters who routinely exploit them. Not sure what to do about Litchi and Hakumen poking him to death though.

And here was me expecting a discussion on how µ-12 fits into the chart.

[SkyKing]

I'd like to see:

Noel's old 6A hitbox

Tager with a fast, far-reaching normal. Potemkin had this, why shouldn't Tager.

Rachel's old 6B counter hit stun.

Tsubaki with Order-Sol's charge cancels.

Other than that, yeah Tsubaki's pretty much the cream of the crap. Everyone else has something going for them that let them play in a strategic way, but Tsubaki's got that charge that Scream's out "Use me as bait!" and no game to back it up.

[whitevoid]

lol. Noel isn't even close to bottom tier. I don't know what you people are smoking.

[A.X.I.S.]

you are looking at the tier list aren't you?

then your doing it wrong, stop it.

[whitevoid]

To touch on an earlier point about Hakumen being S or A, I think he's firmly A tier due to having the worst meter management in the game. BnB nets him like -3 Orbs (-4, +1) which is like -40 meter or something? You can do a gatling for like +20. That's a full distortion in difference, and the better meter builders get nearly 50 meter of their combos.

Of course, he has passive meter gain (and is just in general great), but when Ragna is finished with you he'll likely have 50 meter to burn to screw you over. Hakumen has to wait to generate that meter back. And it's that gap in his gameplay that keeps him from being S tier (actually he'd probably be godlike tier if he even came close to even on meter off his combos).

Quite apart from a lot of consensus here, I don't think it's extra damage that will truly fix Tager's poor standing. All that really accomplishes is pushing him up the tier list a bit, whilst still having the same problems against the same characters as he does now. He needs a new move or two, gadget finger and 4D were big steps in the right direction. If he had a new anti air move (6D?) against people crossing him up and possibly something resembling a decent aerial moveset (he has a few useful moves, but very little combo potential or self defense up there) then it'd cover his weaknesses against characters who routinely exploit them. Not sure what to do about Litchi and Hakumen poking him to death though.

And here was me expecting a discussion on how µ-12 fits into the chart.

Yeah, I think you're right. Maybe if he blocks a move with that... it auto-blocks and charges up his electric gauge, dunno the name. If he blocks a move with that it'd magnetize them. Once he gets them magnetized, he moves up quite a bit since he has better range.

As for Mu...

Might as well start discussing Mu.

Just throwing this out there (i.e. it's probably wrong, but it's somewhere to start for discussion purposes)

Bang, Slight disadvantage. Has DP for defense to defend against general brokenness at least.

Litchi, Disadvantage. Should be stronger at ideal range.

Ragna, Slight disadvantage... maybe even. Again, DP at least

Hakumen, Disadvantage. Getting cut is probably so bad you never want to use drive out in the open

Arakune, Advantage, lasers shoot everwhere

Carl, Even... maybe slight advantage, DP looks like it'll cover both sides, lasers keep shooting even if hit, can hit Carl from behind Nirvana, with enough steins can probably catch him off his little dash things

Jin, Even

Hazama, Slight advantage, lasers should trump his zoning game, and can probably live happier playing the mid-range game

Taokaka, Even

Lamda, Slight disadvantage, swords probably better than lasers head to head at range

Noel, Even... maybe slight disadvantage, might be able to drive through some of her lasers, but then again it's still noel (haven't tested how good her drive is against lasers and such)

Tsubaki, Even, both need set-up time (Advantage, I tried out Tsubaki. Lol. Yeah, She has the advantage here).

Tager, Advantage, he's a big hit box and she has lots of lasers that shoot

Rachel, Advantage, Mu actually does damage.

5 disadvantage, 4 advantage would place her somewhere in mid-tier which sounds about right. She's not top. Nor is she's near top. But she can do good damage without having serious liabilites in general. Hakumen is the only one out of the top that screws her over specifically.

Feel like that's about right. Somewhere in B tier depending on where her damage ends up.

Makoto, I feel will probably be somewhere in A tier.

My tier list is...

S Litchi

S- Bang, Ragna

A Hakumen, Carl, Arakune

A- Tao, Lamda, Hazama, (Makoto?)

B Jin, Noel, (Mu?)

C Tager, Tsubaki

C- Rachel

Tier definitions are:

S, Stupid Easy

A, Stupid Good

B, Good

C, Playable

[A.X.I.S.]

how the fuck is ara better than lambda and haz?

explanation! I demand it!

[Heroic_Legacy]

Tsubaki, Even, both need set-up time (Advantage, I tried out Tsubaki. Lol. Yeah, She has the advantage here).

People called me crazy when I suggested this.

[Spirit Juice]

Quite apart from a lot of consensus here, I don't think it's extra damage that will truly fix Tager's poor standing. All that really accomplishes is pushing him up the tier list a bit, whilst still having the same problems against the same characters as he does now. He needs a new move or two, gadget finger and 4D were big steps in the right direction. If he had a new anti air move (6D?) against people crossing him up and possibly something resembling a decent aerial moveset (he has a few useful moves, but very little combo potential or self defense up there) then it'd cover his weaknesses against characters who routinely exploit them. Not sure what to do about Litchi and Hakumen poking him to death though.

And here was me expecting a discussion on how µ-12 fits into the chart.

Tager's normals are fine. 2C is a pretty good anti-air, and his air normals don't really need buffs; he's a grappler. His air normals are supposed to be decent but not great. He's not supposed to have long reaching normals/good pokes. His main issue is mobility, which is why zoning characters typically give him issues. Grapplers are supposed to play like this; it's part of their stigma. Horrible neutral game, great close range game.

[Zarithan]

In air command grab ( 360a or smth) , less frames for purple throw cancel and Spark bolt as a dp

that should make Tager more efficient

[Heroic_Legacy]

In air command grab ( 360a or smth)

Let's give him unblockables too if we wanna make him AC Potemkin.