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worldjem7

BB:CS Match-Up Chart

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Same thing applies to Hazama, which stops his easy hit confirm BnBs.

To his advantage, it's not like stopping his chains are gonna stall his entire gameplan.

I thought his other advantage was that at close range he's more competent than Rachael, he can still do spiderman shennanigans even if his chains are hit by the cannon.... though Rachael can still zone in proportion to Hazama's ability to get in, so it balances eachother.... or something:psyduck:

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^ No, yeah, if he gets in then Rachel is going to have a hard time but it's getting in that's the problem. And the pillows cancel the chain on clash so he can't really do any spiderman shenanigans. Besides, flying through the air with lightning rods around? Suicide. :vbang:

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Having watched this matchup many, many times, my inclination is to say it is steeply Hazy advantage. Full screen chain punishes, no need to commit, better keepaway game. Outzoning Rachel with full combo punishes from full screen = What does she do, except die?

Takes incredible patience for the Rachel player, and to use the weakest aspects of her game well.

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True, but if she maintains her zoning it totally stalls the match since Hazama can't really dash in without eating lightning. Timeout's a legit strategy for our Hime-sama. :V

Although, yeah, 50-50 seems a little too generous now that I think about it.

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well, i guess the match up is right for rachel

cuz i do get most of wins from arakune only. Yet he is the best cahracter/player in my region.

you can pretty much get away from arakune being cursed or even run/fly away while you are curse, he has no tools to come after you, both character are just flying across the screen most of the time. Ofcourse if u eat a curse combo u basicly dies ( just like everyone else). but in terms of getting away and keeping away, he can't do shit, and so let the time run out. don't make any mistake.

I don't buy too much on hazama, his normal > rachel, and he can zone and get close better then she does. even he doesn't have avg 3k combo, his ensenga and low makes up the dmg. and once u are low in HP war, is hard to catch him. Rachel lacks the turn the table move, combo dmg is just.....if u are play 2/3 game, one burst just fucks ur 50% combo up, no tension = lose. don't make mistake, block all high low throw.

conclusion, if u don't make mistake you win...duh?! so if nth BS happenes u might win, but this game is full of BS, so she have to lose

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Well, that's the thing.. her zoning doesn't work on Haza as well as just about anyone else (Again, from what I've seen. I haven't really studied this matchup. If I'm wrong, someone tell me :toot:). His chains being non-committing make them a trump to lobelia, as any time she sends a lobelia you cancel, or if it won't hit, allow your chain to connect with her recovery. And assuming you play it patiently, she should either have sub par zoning, compared to yours, or run out of wind and be forced to have sub par zoning. Then you also have Hazama's combos doing much more damage average, and when Rachel is on pressure there's always the possibility of an IB Jayakou at any point in your blockstring, which means 6k damage on counter. Ouch. :psyduck:

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Her zoning actually works pretty well against Hazama since even if her lobelia whiffs, she ends up with a lightning rod. Even if you cancel the chain, that rod's still going to be there so no Hazama player is going to just blindly fly through those (unless he's got GUTS). Admittedly, one mistake (e.g. standing in a position that lets the chain clamp on to her) potentially ends in a BnB, but assuming perfect play (which I think is what the tiers are based on), she can keep him away.

Though, yeah, the moment he's in... :vbang:

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I don't think that's fair, because you are assuming perfect play for Rachel and not for Hazama :vbang:

I was making points that stand for both characters playing well, so I don't think they are refuted by a point that assumes only one is. :yaaay:

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Yo, I was assuming perfect play for Hazama too. Otherwise he'd have dashed through the screen by now and either ate lightning or made it. :V

Perfect play Rachel:

Would not let anything through

Perfect play Hazama:

Hit confirm everything

So if he can't hit confirm with the chains, he can't do anything. And if he can hit confirm with a normal then he already made it past Rachel's zoning, which I did say was terrible for our Hime-sama.

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Yeah, but he doesn't have to dash across the screen until he's confirmed the hit. It's really easy to, and he gets full combo. :/ Lightning rods in the way is moot.

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I don't understand why people use "perfect play" as the standard to judge tiers, since nobody in history has ever played perfectly.

Let me put it this way. If there was someone with superhuman reflexes who could play perfectly, then wouldn't Haku be god tier since he could just counter every single attack and dash through just the right openings, etc?

Maybe I'm missing something.

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Yeah, but he doesn't have to dash across the screen until he's confirmed the hit. It's really easy to, and he gets full combo. :/ Lightning rods in the way is moot.

I'm saying Rachel's zoning has failed if he gets a chain hit confirm. Admittedly, Hime-sama would have to stay at the very edge of the screen THE ENTIRE TIME, but it should be possible to reaction the short range lobelia to stop any chains coming in.

I don't understand why people use "perfect play" as the standard to judge tiers, since nobody in history has ever played perfectly.

Let me put it this way. If there was someone with superhuman reflexes who could play perfectly, then wouldn't Haku be god tier since he could just counter every single attack and dash through just the right openings, etc?

Maybe I'm missing something.

Using the example, his counter can still be baited. Very punishable on whiff. :V

I dunno, I always assumed the tiers were perfect play. I mean, otherwise, the difficulty of an input would factor into the tier placement.

And to preempt any "Rachel's pillows can be baited" comments, yes, totally possible, but short range lobelias are safe enough to throw out that she can wait until the chain is at least halfscreen to do it, and if Hazama does cancel from that far, the recovery is enough that it doesn't leave the Princess open.

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Using the example, his counter can still be baited. Very punishable on whiff. :V

Well, what I meant is the Hakumen would be playing perfectly, ie., he wouldn't respond to baits and only counter on reaction to moves that he knows would hit him or once the opponent has committed to something. Since they're 1 frame counters it would just rely on reaction time, they could wait until they see you do a move and then do it.

I suppose I can't really think of any other way to classify tiers though. Although I always thought that if there was some character whose input for every move was a 1080 or something that it would have to affect his tier list on the account of nobody being able to use them properly.

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^ True true, but then his opponent would also be at "perfect play" too, which then throws us into the realm of very shady theory fighting as to whether "he knows that I know that he knows that I know that he knows what I'm thinking he knows" or not. :psyduck:

Also, I guess since eventually, and with enough practice, someone WILL achieve perfect/near-perfect play, placements rely only on a character's capability to punish everyone else.

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I think it's false to claim that perfect play and perfectly safe play are the same thing. The best players take risks as well, and without such risks, every match would result in a stalemate. As such, there is no easily verifiable "perfect" play.

I tend to think of tiers as a general indication of how much effort a given character needs outside of training to win a match. Training effort required is irrelevant for obvious reasons - if it wasn't, Carl and Arakune would have been near the bottom of CT's tier list.

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I don't think that's fair, because you are assuming perfect play for Rachel and not for Hazama :vbang:

lol, i like this

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^ I... kinda already said I was factoring in perfect play for both. D:

Also, yes, there's a difference between perfect play and perfectly safe play. It's just that those two happen to coincide in the Rachel-Hazama matchup, at least for Rachel.

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Where there is a disconnect here is I've seen hundreds of Rachel V Hazama matches, between current good (american :vbang:) players. Both players can play at a 'perfect' level, but for Hazama that's also coincident with 'perfectly safe', which is why I give this match to Hazama, on top of his superior damage.

His chains completely trump lobelia, seriously. Saying that you can lobelia counter chains is crazy. His chain is so much better at that "I'm going to deflect shit with this" game, because it has self-cancellability, is faster, reaches farther, and doesn't consume a resource.

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I... Yeah, I concede that this is totally not a 50-50 match. If all you're doing is zoning, that's hardly an even match.

Still, zoning is totally doable though. I mean, it'd be uber turtling on Rachel's part but it'd work. The A lobelias on the ground stops the chain and she can totally spam that too. She'd just have to not do any of the other lobelias since those are totally unsafe on whiff against this guy. :psyduck:

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Define uber turtling; in my eyes there is only so much Rachel can do to avoid BLOCKING a chain, and Hazama being on top of her with pressure immediately. This involves burning her relatively unreliable resource. :/

Now, she does have decent answers that are universal to fighting Hazama. If you decide you don't care if the chain hits you, you can IB the chain and try to react to his pull in (Jump forward air grab is good, often), and if you play THIS aspect of the match solidly enough, you might even make the Hazama player rage a little bit. If you succeed in demoralizing him in terms of his approach, he may lose a strong part of his game.

All theory fighter though. Even using Bang, Hazama is one of my weakest matchups (Which is ridiculous :vbang:)

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This is just from my experience but I play against a decent Rachel player regularly and it's definately not a 5-5 matchup but 5.5-4.5 to Hazama. Probably not 6-4 but close.

Hazama's close range game is pretty much superior to Rachel's if he plays it right and once he gets in it's really hard for Rachel to get him out. And generally by the time she gets him out, he'll have enough meter for a Distortion. Rachel can't really eat any attacks as he can pretty much hit-confirm most things into a huge meter building combo. At full screen with Lobelias planted it is kinda hard for Hazama to get in but he can fake his chains and C cancel right before the lobelia so he lands before it or barriers it and gets him closer to Rachel. He can also do a 2D 9B follow up which pretty much launches him across the whole damn screen and while it's possible to hit him out of it with sword iris it's pretty hard I would think, never been hit out of it before. What makes this hard for Rachel is that if Hazama has a distortion, she can't throw anything out on the ground lest she eat a rekkazan (his portal DD). If she sj's to lay out a lobelia then Hazama has an easy chance to get in on her or at least get closer.

While she can lobelia on reaction to chains, Hazama doesn't always have to throw his chains foward. A 4D from high enough will get enough hitstun to go into a combo so he can just launch his chains pretty high upwards then go across to where Rachel is and then just aim straight down. If he hits he gets more follow-ups with his drives and can go in for a combo.

So pretty much Rachel just doesn't have enough tools to keep Hazama away from her forever and once he gets in on her it's a pretty dangerous for Rachel. She definately does not want to eat a Jayoku combo and his BnB hurts enough.

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^ True true, but then his opponent would also be at "perfect play" too, which then throws us into the realm of very shady theory fighting as to whether "he knows that I know that he knows that I know that he knows what I'm thinking he knows" or not. :psyduck:

Also, I guess since eventually, and with enough practice, someone WILL achieve perfect/near-perfect play, placements rely only on a character's capability to punish everyone else.

Akuma is god tier in ST because he can spam air fireballs and theres nothing anybody can do about it. They just accept it.

So no, it's not all about who punishes the best. Though that can make a really good character.

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Define uber turtling; in my eyes there is only so much Rachel can do to avoid BLOCKING a chain, and Hazama being on top of her with pressure immediately. This involves burning her relatively unreliable resource. :/

Now, she does have decent answers that are universal to fighting Hazama. If you decide you don't care if the chain hits you, you can IB the chain and try to react to his pull in (Jump forward air grab is good, often), and if you play THIS aspect of the match solidly enough, you might even make the Hazama player rage a little bit. If you succeed in demoralizing him in terms of his approach, he may lose a strong part of his game.

All theory fighter though. Even using Bang, Hazama is one of my weakest matchups (Which is ridiculous :vbang:)

Man, I can't wait for the console release. We could test all of these out for reals. :V

There's like no timing involved on a blocked chain. Even if you don't IB it, any poke/anti-air will hit him out of it if he decides to commit since there's no way he can cancel that into anything until the very end. And since this is Rachel, that'd be a 6A or 5B into combo. Rinse and repeat as long as he keeps doing it

At full screen with Lobelias planted it is kinda hard for Hazama to get in but he can fake his chains and C cancel right before the lobelia so he lands before it or barriers it and gets him closer to Rachel. He can also do a 2D 9B follow up which pretty much launches him across the whole damn screen and while it's possible to hit him out of it with sword iris it's pretty hard I would think, never been hit out of it before.

Again, if Hazama commits to a direction then there's no way he can cancel it, so if he haphazardly decides to fly in on a blocked/whiffed chainhit then odds are he'll eat a lobelia or an anti-air. C won't do him any good if it's the short-range lobelia since he'll still be right in her face to eat an anti-air/poke. And while 2D~9B does launch him all the way across and makes it hard for Rachel to hit him with the lightning, the trajectory is very predictable since you know he's going to land in the corner, and so just wait for it and hit him out with the anti-air. Or, you know, just run across the other side of the screen when he does it. :V

While she can lobelia on reaction to chains, Hazama doesn't always have to throw his chains foward. A 4D from high enough will get enough hitstun to go into a combo so he can just launch his chains pretty high upwards then go across to where Rachel is and then just aim straight down. If he hits he gets more follow-ups with his drives and can go in for a combo.

He gets two reel-ins per reset so he can't fly up really high otherwise the next one won't connect. And if he does aim a chain up, a simple lobelia to it would stop him. Plus, again, anytime Hazama goes way up in the air gives Hime-sama the time to run across to the other side. Or she could just wind him for added RAGE factor.

Akuma is god tier in ST because he can spam air fireballs and theres nothing anybody can do about it. They just accept it.

So no, it's not all about who punishes the best. Though that can make a really good character.

But then doesn't spamming fireballs count as extreme punishing? I mean, there's like nothing they can do about it right?

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Actually without IB most characters can't interrupt the followup. I think the best Rachel could do without IB is poooossibly a 5A, but most likely a 2C.

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Generally Rachel can float around waiting for Hazama to miss a chain then summon pumpkin/lob to cover more chains/ chain followup trajectories.

Sort of like the anti-Sagat/fireball strat in streetfighter.

Fighting head on in zoning = Rachel lose, most definitely, but its not like Hazama gains anything from zoning with chains if all you're doing is jumping around with barrier. Hazama has only Jakou/qcb+d~b to force air barrier which are easy enough to see coming. I feel it is easier for Rachel to wait till Hazama messes up chain zoning than Lambda messing up sword pressure. Hazama has nothing similar to her ground spike summons that eat primers or force certain movement that makes Rachel commit to jumps etc.

Rachel has stronger close up offense/defense options than Hazama till he gains gauge for houtenjin. Houtenjin is strong but not something you can throw out safely till he has 100% meter plus its not easy to super someone who knows you have the option. However still a valid strong move that tilts the scales when Hazama does get the meter.

Hazama gains meter like a slut. Disadvantage to Rachel mid-round when she's down 50% health and Hazama has the possible full meter. Have lost many matches with full meter when Hazama busts out a half life damage 100% heat combo just because a mistake was made on my part.

Feels like a race vs time mostly. Hazama gains exponential advantage having after 50%/100% heat, while Rachel has to force her way in before he does get that. Most of the time the match direction is already decided on who lands the first meaty hit or knockdown of the round, and the first most likely to do so is Hazama due to his more flexible design.

I suppose the Japanese feel its pretty even since Rachel actually has pretty decent pokes against Hazama once you get past the chains. The use of Houtenjin is pretty much a shotgun/ double-edged sword option so it shouldn't factor too strongly in a matchup chart.

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