Arcade Stick vs Controller

[Skye]

and for the record, daigo was never good at guilty gear.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OszwkDYWPxc

[McArthur]

lmao at that vid , i think i heard Umehara Kamehame ha

[Narcowski]

lmao at that vid , i think i heard Umehara Kamehame ha

You did. It's there.

Also, that was awful, and yet I can't look away.

[DJPlace]

i can't pull off some commands with a paddle so i'm going try an arcade stick when i have the money of course.

to show my love for blazblue i'm going get this.

http://www.gamestop.com/Catalog/ProductDetails.aspx?product_id=84410

[Kain]

You know that you can mod your stick with more than just buttons, right?

I don't know the exact process, but I know this much, you can probably get a Madcatz SE (lol good luck working with duds that you're just going to swap out in a few weeks/months), tear out the stock art and replace it with artwork of your choice.

Although, if I were you, I wouldn't miss out on a deal like that. BB TE sticks normally cost $200 most days, from what I hear.

[Supa]

Ok, qwerty. You're absolutely right. The "drop junk in my lap test" is scientific and effective in measuring button travel length.... and/or the dumbest thing I've ever heard. Ever.

Have you ever opened up a calculator? PS3 pad? 360 pad? Nintendo pad? There's a thin rubber membrane. Have you ever seen a microswitch from a joystick? The mechanical actuator is huge in comparison to this rubberymembraney thing. You don't even need to measure this - it's painfully obvious. You can try dropping it in your lap, but I dunno if you have a lap that has a built in digital caliper or how that would be effective at all. I would suggest just looking at it. The proof is there - it's just clear some people are bad at measuring things and judging the size of things visually. It seems some people judge an appropriate measurement in how many switches activate when you drop things on your lap.

"Joysticks are better cos the buttons are further apart" is the second dumbest thing I've ever heard. Ever. Have you seen a viewlix? Just look at one. I'd be willing to bet the distance between button edges is the same if not less than a PS3 pad. Your argument is that buttons being further apart is efficient and somehow amazingly accurate - therefore, using your argument style along with whatever that other clutzes name was.... we should all play on a DDR pad. Got it. I hope you don't want me to drop that in my lap.... How do you shop for shoes? They have a length measurement required in the form of a standard size. Do you just have someone kick you in the crotch until it feels snug?

Anyway, this is clearly pointless. When ridiculously obvious facts are downplayed by someone trying to provide proof they're a better debater (and as such, not right, just better at debate) - it's quite clear we are having trouble distinguishing "a forest from the trees" scenario. Qwerty and that other fellow can have fun with all that drop-stuff-on-my-balls-for-science and such.

[Skye]

Starting a fight you can't win.

[CrownAxe]

Quick question, what kind of joystick socket do the SSIV/BB:CS Arcade Fight Sticks Tournament Edition use?. I played the non-Tournament Edition and was disappointed that its joystick socket was a square making it almost to execute simple commands like 214. I want to know if the Tournament Edition still hase the square socket or if it has an octagon?

[Skye]

Square.

Square is standard, I recommend learning square, unless you have no plans on hitting any arcades. BB cabs use square gates.

[RagnaXBL]

Quick question, what kind of joystick socket do the SSIV/BB:CS Arcade Fight Sticks Tournament Edition use?. I played the non-Tournament Edition and was disappointed that its joystick socket was a square making it almost to execute simple commands like 214. I want to know if the Tournament Edition still hase the square socket or if it has an octagon?

i always liked the square gates better. if it wasnt square i would always miss the diagonal inputs. im actually importing the BBCS TE stick mainly beacause it has square gates.

[ToastCrust]

Square isn't something everyone understands intuitively. At first it seems counter intuitive as compared to say octagon or circle (that's what I felt my first time), but if you dig into the theories about engage distance and throw balance, you can understand a bit. Still, it's a preference thing. However, as always, just know square is standard. It's much better in general to be used to it, in case you need to borrow or play on a cabinet.

@Supa: I like how you complain about people not providing empirical evidence while using anecdotal evidence to support your claim. kthx

If we're going to insist on some quantitative data as necessary to be our proof, then you do realize neither side can be proven or disproven without providing data, right? There isn't some sort of magic making your argument above this standard you're creating.

Go ahead and take a video of you comparing engage distances with an experimental set up using appropriate equipment, with a corresponding game on to show just how far a button had to be depressed to engage an action.

Because surprisingly, microcontrollers don't actually have to like... go down the entire way to engage.

Unlike y'know, the membrane used for PS3 pads. That would be a naive premise, wouldn't it?

Just sayin'. "You have not shown me a thermometer that shows this room is above room temperature. Therefore, this room must be cold."

[qwerty]

Ok, qwerty. You're absolutely right. The "drop junk in my lap test" is scientific and effective in measuring button travel length.... and/or the dumbest thing I've ever heard. Ever.

have you tried dropping it on your head? at this point, it may be your last hope.

Have you ever opened up a calculator? PS3 pad? 360 pad? Nintendo pad? There's a thin rubber membrane. Have you ever seen a microswitch from a joystick? The mechanical actuator is huge in comparison to this rubberymembraney thing. You don't even need to measure this - it's painfully obvious. You can try dropping it in your lap, but I dunno if you have a lap that has a built in digital caliper or how that would be effective at all. I would suggest just looking at it. The proof is there - it's just clear some people are bad at measuring things and judging the size of things visually. It seems some people judge an appropriate measurement in how many switches activate when you drop things on your lap.

i've opened up more pads and sticks than you've used in your lifetime.

wanna talk facts? here's a fact; sanwa buttons do not need to be pressed all the way in to be engaged- simply resting your fingers on them can cause them to do so. i used the dropping example because it proves just how sensitive they are, and it's something that you will never be able to do with any pad, ever, because pad buttons have to make contact with the rubber membrane in order to work, which requires much more force than what's needed to engage a microswitch in a sanwa button. just because the microswitches in sanwa buttons are huge doesn't mean they have to be pushed down all the way to work (don't believe me? ask anyone that plays on sanwa; you can breathe of them funny and they'll start going off).

at this point, i can't help but wonder if YOU'VE ever opened up a stick, lol.

"Joysticks are better cos the buttons are further apart" is the second dumbest thing I've ever heard. Ever. Have you seen a viewlix? Just look at one. I'd be willing to bet the distance between button edges is the same if not less than a PS3 pad.

and yet you fail to take into account the size of said buttons and how far the centers of them are (presumably where you're trying to press them) from each other? why would you ever think that measuring their distance edge to edge was what i was referring to? (answer: because you don't play on stick, lol.)

Your argument is that buttons being further apart is efficient and somehow amazingly accurate - therefore, using your argument style along with whatever that other clutzes name was.... we should all play on a DDR pad.

just because arcade layout is superior to pad because the buttons are larger and further apart doesn't mean that buttons as big as humanly fucking possible and a hundred fucking miles apart are ideal. with such gross exaggerations and insane ultimatums, you sound like a clingy ex girlfriend, lol.

Got it. I hope you don't want me to drop that in my lap.... How do you shop for shoes? They have a length measurement required in the form of a standard size. Do you just have someone kick you in the crotch until it feels snug?

i'd rather not get in to it, but let's just say there's a reason she's an ex girlfriend now

Anyway, this is clearly pointless. When ridiculously obvious facts are downplayed

oh, you mean what you've been doing for the past three or so pages?

by someone trying to provide proof they're a better debater (and as such, not right, just better at debate)

unfortunately for you, i am both.

it's quite clear we are having trouble distinguishing "a forest from the trees" scenario.

it's quite clear to me that in spite of your impressive collection of arcade cabinets, you fail to understand why arcade layout, buttons and sticks are superior for fighting games. is it because you have limited experience playing on japanese parts? is it because you learned on pad and nothing else? is it because you're absolutely terrible at fighting games? i'll bet my money on all of the above (don't worry though, nobody else here is much better than you at fighting games ).

[Supa]

Priceless. Absolutely priceless. Now you want to measure from the center of buttons even though they can be activated by any edge? Are you just arguing for the sake of arguing? If I hit the edge on accident or I hit the center on accident.... you still get the same result.

Fact: Sanwa engage point is further than a PS3 pad. Measure it with more than your lap.

OBSF-30s are nearly the same, but mine actually engage past the point of the PS3 pad. Try measuring with something more than your lap and this is indeed a provable fact. It's really really really easy to verify this with a caliper. Give it a shot.

JLF microswitch engage is indeed larger than the engage point of a PS3 dpad. Once again, try measuring with something more than your lap.

Doubt me? Test it yourself. Want to still argue? You're clearly not interested in facts.

I'd like to point out this whole thing started out as an opinion that pads have less travel and as such should be more responsive when it came to tapping directions. Rather than proving any insight, it's just become an insult slinging contest with one side having actual facts (hi, caliper!) and the other side making wild speculations and stupid comparisons (drop stuff in your lap for facts ftw!).

Good job, fellows. Good job.

In other news, I prefer square gates. If you're a first-time joystick user, you might want to check out an octagon until you get more confident with your inputs. When you find yourself at the point where you aren't riding the octo-gate, switch to square. For games like Guilty Gear, KoF, SF, etc, anyway.

[ToastCrust]

"Wanna know the facts? Use a thermometer yourself. You'll find it's cold here, not hot. And that's why I'm right, because you haven't tested it with a thermometer. Until YOU test it and prove the temperature is hot, this room will always be cold, by default. That is how science works, mister."

[Supa]

"Wanna know the facts? Use a thermometer yourself. You'll find it's cold here, not hot. And that's why I'm right, because you haven't tested it with a thermometer. Until YOU test it and prove the temperature is hot, this room will always be cold, by default. That is how science works, mister."

What do you want me to do to prove this to you? Do you want me to take pictures of the buttons with a caliper on them? You'll only argue with me that I've depressed the button past the engage point to doctor the results. So, yes, do the test yourgoddamnself because you simply have decided to put on the Brick-Wall-Of-Oblivious Helmet +1 with anything I say or do.

My objective opinion is that pads have an advantage with tapping inputs. The justification for that opinion is based on the travel distance for the buttons. An objective intelligent person would argue the validation for the opinion rather than try to invent stupid scenarios that invalidate the other persons ability, intent or intelligence.

And I think I just realized the correlation for qwerty's laptest - he's confusing sensitivity with activation travel. That's comparing force to a measurement of length - which is completely invalid. Your thumb and pinky are supposed to be your strongest gripping digits. The strength of your thumb should overcompensate for the force required to activate the button (again, don't confuse that with the actual distance travelled).

[ToastCrust]

I'm just saying, all you're doing is demanding empirical evidence.

When you provide zilch.

Your argument, which also works against what qwerty's doing, also undoes your own argument completely.

Don't set a standard you're not going to live up to. Requiring hard data goes both ways. So yes, if you're intent on us being unable to be right until we've done measurements with a caliper, I must insist it is impossible for you to be right without having done measurements with a caliper.

[lime93]

I just picked up a fight stick last week and i haven't played a game on a fight stick since Tekken 3 in the arcades. It took some time in training mode but now that I'm used to it I can do combos easier and with the buttons being big I won't accidentally hit another button like what happened with my controller. So far I love my stick over the controller now the only thing I have to worry about is what kind of art I will put on it maybe Hell Girl or Mio.

[Supa]

I'm just saying, all you're doing is demanding empirical evidence.

When you provide zilch.

Your argument, which also works against what qwerty's doing, also undoes your own argument completely.

Don't set a standard you're not going to live up to. Requiring hard data goes both ways. So yes, if you're intent on us being unable to be right until we've done measurements with a caliper, I must insist it is impossible for you to be right without having done measurements with a caliper.

You've got this quite backwards. I tried to objectively present an opinion of how a controller may have an advantage - at which point that opinion was met with nothing but demands, condescending rants and insults about how I'm some newbie pad user when the reality of the situation is that I have stated I use joysticks and only joysticks and a wide variety of joysticks. In opposition, I'm getting faced down by some weaboo ridiculousness militia that only believe Japanese arcade parts have ever been in existence and are more accurate "because moar when I drop them in my lap."

The evidence for the argument is there. It's quite obvious - seriously, go measure it. Or... how about you just objectively disagree with the fact that it is a pad advantage? I believe it definitely could be an advantage - I've never said you have to agree with me. You only need to consider the reality of the situation and not keep posting random nonsense about laptesting joysticks. Clearly, you two are rabid joystick users - that's fine, I am, too, but for the sake of the topic of the thread... you could attempt to honestly and objectively consider the alternative.

See how that works? An objective opinion is presented, it was backed up by facts you choose to ignore. You choose to ignore them in order to win an argument that doesn't really exist. The proper thing to do would be to just disagree with it rather than attempt to "win" an opinion. A reasonable person would understand you can't "win" an opinion, especially by dropping it in your lap.

Edit and PS: No, I'm not going to let go of the lap test thing. That is seriously the funniest thing I've ever heard. "Joysticks have less travel because they fire when I hump them! Pads lose because I can't set off the buttons with my crotch!" is absolutely classic.

[Skye]

Controllers break faster.

[ToastCrust]

Just because I'm arguing the same side as qwerty doesn't mean I think his methodology is correct, kthx.

I still seriously believe engage distances of sanwas are actually less that PS3 pad. So you're saying "Clearly PS3 pads have less engage distances, so it must be better" is hardly convincing.

The fact doesn't at all have the consensus you say it does. So clearly the only way is to show empirical proof lol

And I'm too lazy to do that lol

[Crosell]

I just picked up a fight stick last week and i haven't played a game on a fight stick since Tekken 3 in the arcades. It took some time in training mode but now that I'm used to it I can do combos easier and with the buttons being big I won't accidentally hit another button like what happened with my controller. So far I love my stick over the controller now the only thing I have to worry about is what kind of art I will put on it maybe Hell Girl or Mio.

Its always the hardest part

[Jason D.]

Wow. I love this thread. This is even better than I thought it would be when it first started.

Also, did it REALLY take you that long to realize he was talking about the sensitivity of the buttons? He's only provided like three examples thus far. One of which you seem to enjoy laughing at because you don't understand what he meant. In fact, apparently you still don't? You are "Not going to let it go", and it's "the funniest thing ever", I hear.

In case you haven't noticed, you have to press buttons on a controller harder than you do with a set of Sanwa buttons. I don't care how far the travel distance of the buttons is, so put down the ruler. They have to be pressed harder. In fact, they actually RESIST getting pressed until X amount of force is applied. It's a little feature or whatever of the controller, so that they don't get activated by accident. And while this is helpful for 10-year-olds with lead hands, most fighting gamers demand quick reactions. Sanwa buttons, on the other hand, activate VERY easily. Just one light touch. They can also activate when dropped, or blown on, or any other example you won't understand. And THIS is why they let you perform moves quicker. They activate instantly when touched. Whereas a controller button is going to fight you back for a moment.

Also, stop arguing about how you're arguing. Why does every discussion turn into that...

[DJPlace]

are arcade sticks worth to buy if you don't go to tourment's?

[Mr Oso]

IMO no

[mr.mortified]

It depends, you can also use pads in tourneys though, but what system you use them for could be an issue a converter may solve.

Sticks however shouldn't just be bought for tournament use only. If you enjoy playing with a joystick, just because you don't go to tournaments doesn't mean you should invest in one. Sticks however will not improve how you play a game versus how you play with a pad. Just because you can do (insert movement/combo here) faster than you can on a stick doesn't automatically mean a stick is better than a pad. How you perform depends on how much time you practice with your equipment. In the end, it all comes down to the user's preference.