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How do you deal with Elph in the corner when she's got her shotgun out?

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How do you deal with Elph in the corner when she's got her shotgun out?

Try and attack during her reload period if you have a decent ranged poke. Blitz shield if she's swinging her gun at you, and the obvious dead angle or burst if you've no other options. .

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How do you deal with Elph in the corner when she's got her shotgun out?

 

Shotgun > Reload > Shotgun is not a true blockstring, everyone can mash something out of it.  Over on the I-No boards a couple guys are currently experimenting with some defensive Just YRC options (time YRC so the invincibility makes command grabs whiff for a free punish, it's not specific to I-No) and it's effective against Shotgun pressure into command grab but it takes some timing.

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Try and attack during her reload period if you have a decent ranged poke. Blitz shield if she's swinging her gun at you, and the obvious dead angle or burst if you've no other options. .

There is a gap between two non-charged shotgun shots that is big enough to hit a jab in between. There is only a tiny gap in between a charged shotgun shot> reload > non-charged shotgun shot, so hitting a button there will likely get you counter-hit.

 

You can 1 frame jump after uncharged shotgun blast, react to whether she whiffed another shotgun blast, and try to get out of the corner. That's the best solution. That, or just try to read when she's going to do a command grab and jump it/mash on it. Elphelt's shotgun pressure is very strong and there's no simple answer to get out of it.

Shotgun > Reload > Shotgun is not a true blockstring, everyone can mash something out of it.  Over on the I-No boards a couple guys are currently experimenting with some defensive Just YRC options (time YRC so the invincibility makes command grabs whiff for a free punish, it's not specific to I-No) and it's effective against Shotgun pressure into command grab but it takes some timing.

This won't work on Elphelt's command grab because it has 3 active frames and you're only invincible for 1 during YRC. Pbuster and Wild Throw each have 1 active frame.

 

Doing raw YRC during her shotgun pressure is not particularly effective because you have 5 vulnerable startup frames, and the benefit is a single invincibility frame. Anything that you can't jump out of (or at least get off the ground and block), you won't be able to avoid with raw YRC. In addition, trying to abuse the 1 frame of invincibility on YRC in general is a bad idea in my opinion because you're relying on the opponent's timing being perfect every time and them never using another option. Especially with command grab ticks, where it's beneficial to mix up your timings constantly. If your YRC doesn't work, you lose 25% meter, incur tension gain penalty, and you get hit anyway.

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I thought YRC had 2 frames of invul.  That accounts for being able to go through Sol's 5H with YRC.

 

In addition, trying to abuse the 1 frame of invincibility on YRC in general is a bad idea in my opinion because you're relying on the opponent's timing being perfect every time and them never using another option.

 

Eh... no.  If your opponent tries to tick throw they have to leave a gap.  The minimum gap between being in block stun and being in a throwable state is 5 frames.  Guess what, you have 5 frames of startup on YRC before the 1st invul frame, then time stops for ~20 frames, then you can move and the 1st frame is invul.  If they try to tick throw on the first possible frame with a command throw, you go through it.  If they continued hitting buttons and didn't try to frame trap you, guess what happens?  If you're holding back and you're in block stun, you get FD when pressing 3 buttons.  If they went for a regular throw and your timing is early you wind up using YRC before their state changes, so now you have to jump, attempt your own throw, etc.  If your timing was spot on, the state check determines that you can't be throw and whatever move they OS'd with their throw (5H/6H are standard, some use 6P, etc) comes out.  And it's time slowed.  The punish isn't as great as a command throw but you can still either throw on reaction (guaranteed with your 1 additional invul frame) or use a fast poke to get a full combo.

 

Yes, they have options to deal with this.  They could simply stand there to get you to waste meter, but then you get initiative unless they play games with a Reversal or spend meter on BS/YRC.  They could frame trap you, sure.  If they're going for frametraps though they're generally not going for mixups, so you can just block.  If they did go for the command throw but were just kinda slow about doing it you'd have to get out of the way, but with YRC you have an advantage when attempting to do so.  You're not going to get thrown out of the YRC since they are forced to leave a gap.  That's why this works and is so effective vs throws.  It just happens to work against some other things too, but it's higher risk and harder to time.  It's also safer than BS if they feinted since you don't go into recovery and give them a full punish.

 

There's no 1-size fits all answer, and that's part of what makes this fun.  This OS needs meter up front and can still be baited or beaten, but it can help in several situations.  You just have to know when it's worth attempting.

 

 

A 2-frame window is like Slashback, so I know some people are going to be able to do this in a pinch.  Coincidentally a 2 frame window with 5 frames of start up is the same as a Perfect Shield in Smash Bros Melee (blocking has 5 frames of startup in that game and the Perfect Shield window is 2 frames).  People pull that off in that game too.

 

 

Though per his inquiry on how to deal with Elphelt, yeah it might be a bad idea to use YRC to attempt to escape per pressure.  I haven't looked into that yet.  Shotgun blasts are only active for 1 frame though, so if she left a big enough gap you could go through it.  Given her toolset in shotgun stance though (and considering grenade coverage) it might not be worth the risk.

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I thought YRC had 2 frames of invul. That accounts for being able to go through Sol's 5H with YRC.

It probably has 2 invincibility frames based on your video. Ruu's initial testing result said that YRC had 5 startup frames and 1 invincibility frame, so I was probably using an outdated source.

Eh... If your opponent tries to tick throw they have to leave a gap. The minimum gap between being in block stun and being in a throwable state is 5 frames. Guess what, you have 5 frames of startup on YRC before the 1st invul frame, then time stops for ~20 frames, then you can move and the 1st frame is invul. If they try to tick throw on the first possible frame with a command throw, you go through it.

Unless the command throw has 3 or more active frames, which means that it can't be evaded this way.

They could frame trap you, sure. If they're going for frametraps though they're generally not going for mixups, so you can just block.

The mixup in GG with command grabs is generally a hit/throw mixup. The mixup is either A)Go for a grab to stop them from blocking or B)Go for a frame trap to stop them from jumping or hitting you out of that command grab. This isn't particularly helpful because you could just jump or hit a 2P to guess that they're going for the command grab. It doesn't necessarily make the opponent reevaluate their mixup. The only major benefit I see is that you aren't putting yourself in CH state, which could make some frame traps less scary. If you know they're going to throw, sure, go for it. But don't be surprised if you get knocked down and lose meter.

If they did go for the command throw but were just kinda slow about doing it you'd have to get out of the way, but with YRC you have an advantage when attempting to do so. You're not going to get thrown out of the YRC since they are forced to leave a gap. That's why this works and is so effective vs throws. It just happens to work against some other things too, but it's higher risk and harder to time. It's also safer than BS if they feinted since you don't go into recovery and give them a full punish.

After watching the video, I can see some examples where this might be useful or even the optimal punish, such as during Leo's 5H 6H string. But even there, Leo has stuff that will just auto-bait that YRC option.

A 2-frame window is like Slashback, so I know some people are going to be able to do this in a pinch. Coincidentally a 2 frame window with 5 frames of start up is the same as a Perfect Shield in Smash Bros Melee (blocking has 5 frames of startup in that game and the Perfect Shield window is 2 frames). People pull that off in that game too.

Slashback was used for very particular strings and moves with multiple hits. The major benefit of Slashback was always that you could do it during blockstun, which allowed you to punish moves like Bandit Revolver after blocking the first hit. Also, when executed correctly against moves like Eddie's Mawaru, it creates a gap in Eddie's pressure and you can't really punish someone for executing the Slashback correctly. Slashback is a much more powerful mechanic with higher rewards. I don't expect to see people use YRC defensively like this much at all because there are other defensive options that are safer and use less meter.

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I don't think they clash more in GG, but if they did, it would be because of stuff like foot invincibility on sweeps and 6P upper body invincibility.

 

It also helps that GG is more about Option Select normal escapes in neutral situations (i.e. avoiding throws which the game is centered around, which means mashing in neutral situations which means two players are mashing next to each-other which leads to offset clashing), not to mention GG is a lot more fast paced so it would "look" like you clash more often.

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Does strike invulnerability cover projectiles too?

Even though they're flagged as independent atttributes (Throw, Projectile, Strike), for the most part anything that's strike invul is also projectile invul, and only DPs tend to be both throw and strike invul (and that's only during the first few frames). Bursts are strike and projectile invul but not throw. Throwing someone out of a burst is called stealing their soul.

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Im sure I could answer this myself in training mode if I was anywhere near my console, but is there any situation that forces a direction of recovery? I keep seeing people back recover from otgs but that could just be the tendency to hold back causing that.

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Im sure I could answer this myself in training mode if I was anywhere near my console, but is there any situation that forces a direction of recovery? I keep seeing people back recover from otgs but that could just be the tendency to hold back causing that.

In Xrd, if you can tech, you can tech any direction. Teching backwards is usually your safest option just because it creates space between your opponent and yourself. Teching forwards can be incredibly risky against characters like Ky, who can just anti air 6P you and go straight into another combo.

In previous games, you couldn't neutral tech for 2 frames longer than forward or back teching in order to compensate for how quickly you fell to the ground. In Xrd, you can neutral tech immediately, but you float the same as backwards tech unless you delay your tech. If you delay your tech, you get a faster fall similar to other GG games.

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Im sure I could answer this myself in training mode if I was anywhere near my console, but is there any situation that forces a direction of recovery? I keep seeing people back recover from otgs but that could just be the tendency to hold back causing that.

They're probably OSing the tech with FD. Safest way to mash out of a combo.

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In Xrd, if you can tech, you can tech any direction. Teching backwards is usually your safest option just because it creates space between your opponent and yourself. Teching forwards can be incredibly risky against characters like Ky, who can just anti air 6P you and go straight into another combo.

In previous games, you couldn't neutral tech for 2 frames longer than forward or back teching in order to compensate for how quickly you fell to the ground. In Xrd, you can neutral tech immediately, but you float the same as backwards tech unless you delay your tech. If you delay your tech, you get a faster fall similar to other GG games.

Forward tech is generally superior in the corner!

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A transfer of upward velocity in to your tech seems to be a new thing in Xrd. before neutral tech would always send you downward.

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Forward tech is generally superior in the corner!

It's really not. It's a moderate risk to tech towards someone. If they think you might consider a forward tech, it's easy to meet the opponent in the air or attempt to pursue them on the ground. If the opponent shows that they aggressively pursue your tech, you should vary your tech direction (and whether you tech at all) in order to escape. None are really safe, though.

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It's really not. It's a moderate risk to tech towards someone. If they think you might consider a forward tech, it's easy to meet the opponent in the air or attempt to pursue them on the ground. If the opponent shows that they aggressively pursue your tech, you should vary your tech direction (and whether you tech at all) in order to escape. None are really safe, though.

 

Well, I assumed it was obviously that no tech direction was safe except possibly the last moment neutral tech, but I was arguing in the corner, it's generally safer to pop forwards then it is backwards.  There are caveats, like if you are in the corner and the opponent is not near, but generally speaking you want to be teching forwards to escape with air options intact at most heights rather than backwards.  Time until landing is roughly the same, invul is the same, and it's just as easy to chase a back tech if your opponent relies on that more often.  But, like an option in any fighting game, varying your responses is necessary...

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Nothing stops you from teching into an FD.

 

Hey, if you guys get better results from backwards tech than forwards, go for it.  I've made my points and will leave it at that.

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Nothing stops you from teching into an FD.

 

Hey, if you guys get better results from backwards tech than forwards, go for it.  I've made my points and will leave it at that.

 

Fight someone with good air throws and you will never want to tech forward again.

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I lived in Tokyo for a year and a half... A few over those Japanese knew their way around the old air throw.

Hey if for some reason people can't throw your back tech in the corner , but can throw your forwards tech, go for it! Rock out whatever works. I have played plenty of very good players and find my Nash equilibrium tends towards more forwards techs in the corner than back.

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Hey if for some reason people can't throw your back tech in the corner , but can throw your forwards tech, go for it!

I don't think people understand what the corner is. Since every scenario presented against forward teching when someone has you in the corner would also easily blow up neutral and back tech since you go nowhere because of the corner. If people are going to take the risk of teching the general rule of thumb would be to get yourself in an advantageous situation. Teching forward would get you out of the corner, and potentially corner the opponent. The other two techs have the same risk but keep you in the corner.

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