Wonderful World

[Greats]

updated a poor post in a broke thread

[Nuclear Cheese]

updated a poor post in a broke thread

I still maintain that column 4 (which is currently listed as "blockstun") is actually recovery frames. First off, we have guardstun in a separate table. Second off, there's difference values for frame advantage against standing and air opponents. Finally, here's some math:

startup + active + recovery = total frames

--> recovery = total frames - startup - active

advantage = blockstun - recovery - active*

With column 4 as blockstun, these calculations don't line up for much of the data. For instance, Cielo's 5S:

Column 2 (startup): 22

Column 3 (active): 5

Column 4 (???): 40

Column 5 (total frames): 67

Column 7 (advantage standing/crouching): -10

If we take column 4 as blockstun:

recovery = total frames - startup - active

recovery = 67 - 22 - 5

recovery = 40

advantage = blockstun - active - recovery

advantage = 40 - 5 - 40

advantage = -5 <-- contradicts with value in column 7

* maybe actually (active - 1); this assumes we hit on the first active frame

[Greats]

My bad I just copypasta'd assuming I had fixed the old post. Fixed the new one though.

[Fraga]

New post is looking Great. Started trying everyone else aside from Neva, if I find anything I'll post it

[Fraga]

Alright well there hasn't been a post in awhile so please excuse my double post:

Finally decided on maining Duna/Neva, but I'm having problems fighting Sabe.

As we recently found out his 6HS has a good amount of Upper Body invulnerability frames (as does Duna's 6HS, though I don't think as much. My sword was literally going through him and I'd get hit, Tales can vouch for this). His 2K can also beat out Duna's 2K 5S 2S 2HS 214HS string during the time between 2HS and 214HS, which can be converted into his main combo off of throw.

Sabe's damage is hard for Duna to deal with at first, but I feel that once you learn how to zone with her correctly it's really hard for him to start building momentum.

Duna has a stronger variant for her J.214K loop, instead of doing 2HS 214HS SPC 5HS, you can use 5HS 63214S SPC 5HS for more damage, and it can also help in case you mistime it, as you get a relatively safe overhead (due to the SPC). However I believe it is a CORNER ONLY combo, I'm working on trying it midscreen now.

Tested: It does work midscreen, looks like it doesn't do as much damage as I originally thought, but it looks like another option regardless

[Greats]

Alright well there hasn't been a post in awhile so please excuse my double post:

Finally decided on maining Duna/Neva, but I'm having problems fighting Sabe.

As we recently found out his 6HS has a good amount of Upper Body invulnerability frames (as does Duna's 6HS, though I don't think as much. My sword was literally going through him and I'd get hit, Tales can vouch for this). His 2K can also beat out Duna's 2K 5S 2S 2HS 214HS string during the time between 2HS and 214HS, which can be converted into his main combo off of throw.

Sabe's damage is hard for Duna to deal with at first, but I feel that once you learn how to zone with her correctly it's really hard for him to start building momentum.

Duna has a stronger variant for her J.214K loop, instead of doing 2HS 214HS SPC 5HS, you can use 5HS 63214S SPC 5HS for more damage, and it can also help in case you mistime it, as you get a relatively safe overhead (due to the SPC). However I believe it is a CORNER ONLY combo, I'm working on trying it midscreen now.

Tested: It does work midscreen, looks like it doesn't do as much damage as I originally thought, but it looks like another option regardless

For starters you might want to make your approach a bit less obvious if you're getting hit by 6HS anti air, 6HS is slow enough on every character to be highly baitable and thus highly punishable.

In my experience, Duna isn't really much of an "approaching" character anyways. This game has no timer (the standard is to play with unlimited time), she's free to turtle up and be as gay as she likes.

Furthermore, as of 0.50, Duna's j.214K loop has been nerfed quite a bit. If you want to still do good damage with her, you might want to learn her tk j.236P loop.

The general flow is xx > 2HS > 214HS SPC (timed so that the projectile portion still hits) > [[Dash 2S 5HS > TK j.236P]]xN > Dash 5HS > 214HS or SPC Exender

Or at least I believe that's how it goes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vd7qquQbRTI

Combo video showing several j.236P loop variations including some more flashy stuff with her uppercut and 5O set/activate.

Note that she can link her special overhead into 5P in the corner.

--

Unfortunately I haven't played in some time . When I saw this video, I tried out a few of the combos that looked really good, namely the j.236P loop and the corner combo with 214HS(2) SPC into 214K 5O set. I think all of these combos can be practically done with some practice, as I was able to get them with some level of consistency with little practice.

Also Orphe has sort of become my primary alt probably about the same level as my Neva at this point only really lacking a few matchup experiences.

--

At any rate, I think between putting a bigger focus on careful zoning and keepaway (which is Duna's specialty, IMO), and learning her new combos that allow her to get the same damage she used to get in 0.47 can help you level up your game considerably.

p.s. I personally think it's a good idea to drop Duna's meterless combos at 2HS, it lets her set up one of her many 2 way okizeme setups with 5O or j.O set that can lead into a meterless loop, or extended blockstrings. She can also use 214K as a DP save okizeme option (wait until the block, as it goes away when you get hit). 214K can still be set up off a 214HS, but normally anyone who is used to her blockstrings will be able to block just fine, still it's alright, I guess.

[Fraga]

Thanks alot for the advice Greats, I didn't know about the J.236P loop (It's not on the Poverty Wiki) so I'll start practicing that.

[agp24]

Yeah, 6HS isn't as good as 5D antiair as Anji. >_> It works for some reason... But yeah, if you had attempted zoning me, Fraga, I'm reasonably sure you would have done better. I'm finding it pretty difficult to build momentum in the first place, but if I get a random hit, yay 60% damage! Btw, Greats, where would you put Sabe on the tier list? I'm curious. xD

[Greats]

Yeah, 6HS isn't as good as 5D antiair as Anji. >_> It works for some reason... But yeah, if you had attempted zoning me, Fraga, I'm reasonably sure you would have done better. I'm finding it pretty difficult to build momentum in the first place, but if I get a random hit, yay 60% damage! Btw, Greats, where would you put Sabe on the tier list? I'm curious. xD

I don't really have as much matchup XP with Sabe (at least a good one) as I would like to have, but I think he's a viable character. He controls some really weird angles with his unique normals/specials that can make him hard to get used to fighting against, and probably really strong in the right hands too.

His weakness is probably that his projectile is too slow to be useful very often and he can probably get controlled by a careful zoning character. Also he doesn't seem to have a strong rush-down game, not that he needs it.

I'd put him around mid tier. I think most charas in the game are mid tier, with exception of 2 who i would put as definitively above them (not saying).

p.s. why would you anti air with anything other than Sabe 2HS... that has to be one of the better anti airs in the game, maybe the second or tied for second best lol

[agp24]

I go out of my way to use gimmicks if they keep working on certain people. If Fraga had punished my 6HS, I would've stopped, but it's fun to anti air with when it actually works. xD And yes, his 2HS is an amazing anti air. Not a huge fan of 623P, though. Also, I still need to get some matches with you, but sadly, my windows died. I must use this computer, which is a Mac, so I get no WanWan practice.

Edit: Do you know if there is a glitch with Tragic End? I have never once gotten it to work, or seen it work for that matter.

[Pyanchar]

Been having a lot of fun with this the last couple days. Can finally beat the Hard mode AI. Quite an achievement in my book.

[agp24]

This game is pretty godlike. Who do you play? xD

[Greats]

I go out of my way to use gimmicks if they keep working on certain people. If Fraga had punished my 6HS, I would've stopped, but it's fun to anti air with when it actually works. xD And yes, his 2HS is an amazing anti air. Not a huge fan of 623P, though. Also, I still need to get some matches with you, but sadly, my windows died. I must use this computer, which is a Mac, so I get no WanWan practice.

Edit: Do you know if there is a glitch with Tragic End? I have never once gotten it to work, or seen it work for that matter.

Yeah it doesn't work for me either lol. It must have gotten broken in 0.50 or something, that move was pretty garbage anyway though.

[Pyanchar]

I've only played Lynia so far. Love my knockdown into bubbles. *o*

Gonna try out Lemius or Duna once I get Lyn down pat.

[woof]

Cons

its ugly

[agp24]

Eh, art style doesn't really matter. It's passable, which works for me.

[Greats]

It looks like the JP Wonderful World Wiki has completed the initial stage of their character page revamps! All character pages now have complete frame data tables, looks like they are still working on updating combos and move descriptions for a few characters. They've also started to add match-up info, very informative! (if you can somehow read it)

I try to keep the English character pages for Neva / Orphe up to date (actually there's a bit of work to be done on the Orphe page). And I think I'm going to maybe reorganize the front page and/or general information pages on the English wiki so it's more accessible.

[agp24]

So, Cheese found a Lunathia infinite. I wish I could practice right now. >_< Gotta work on my Sabe.

[Nuclear Cheese]

So, Cheese found a Lunathia infinite. I wish I could practice right now. >_< Gotta work on my Sabe.

Way to ruin the surprise, jackass.

To note, it's incredibly impractical and bullshit difficult to do consistently, so I don't think it's anything game-breaking or such. The only way I even confirmed it was actually an infinite was by writing a program to send the inputs to the program, such that it could keep the consistent timing needed to get it to work.

(I'm thinking of making this program available to others once I clean it up and make it suck less ... right now it's a UI nightmare.)

For the time being, I'm keeping this combo to myself, but I'll be showing it off in the (hopefully) near future.

because the CT crew and I and working on a CV

PS - for those who are interested, I turned on debug mode to see the damage. Looks like every hit does 1 point of damage minimum, no matter how bad the scaling gets. I calculated it out, and the infinite I found will kill Ryuza in somewhere around 450 hits (I forget the exact number). Unfortunately, I have yet to get a recording of it actually getting that far, since my input scripting program doesn't stay quite in-sync with the game, and eventually a frame hiccups one way or the other and the combo drops. Maybe I'll go look for the Lunaport source code and see if how they do it would work better.

[Greats]

Way to ruin the surprise, jackass.

To note, it's incredibly impractical and bullshit difficult to do consistently, so I don't think it's anything game-breaking or such. The only way I even confirmed it was actually an infinite was by writing a program to send the inputs to the program, such that it could keep the consistent timing needed to get it to work.

(I'm thinking of making this program available to others once I clean it up and make it suck less ... right now it's a UI nightmare.)

For the time being, I'm keeping this combo to myself, but I'll be showing it off in the (hopefully) near future.

because the CT crew and I and working on a CV

PS - for those who are interested, I turned on debug mode to see the damage. Looks like every hit does 1 point of damage minimum, no matter how bad the scaling gets. I calculated it out, and the infinite I found will kill Ryuza in somewhere around 450 hits (I forget the exact number). Unfortunately, I have yet to get a recording of it actually getting that far, since my input scripting program doesn't stay quite in-sync with the game, and eventually a frame hiccups one way or the other and the combo drops. Maybe I'll go look for the Lunaport source code and see if how they do it would work better.

lol

If you didn't know already, WW runs at 100 fps, but is generally displayed at 60fps because of refresh rate; this means all frame data is actually calculated and such with 100fps. So in this game it's possible to have links that are less than "1 standard frame".

[Pyanchar]

So I'm pretty sure my Lunaport is configured wrong. =-= That or I'm not allowed to use it.

Checked every once in a while but no one was ever in the lobby, so I just assumed no one really sets up random lobby games. I was bored today so I tried connecting to myself, laptop to desktop. It was taking turns timing out and having an error right after characters were selected, and now I can't connect at all. @_@ What I fear is that the college network just doesn't want me doing any p2p gaming. Can't exactly go open ports for myself, so I'm kinda stuck. （￣～￣;）

[Nuclear Cheese]

lol

If you didn't know already, WW runs at 100 fps, but is generally displayed at 60fps because of refresh rate; this means all frame data is actually calculated and such with 100fps. So in this game it's possible to have links that are less than "1 standard frame".

Yeah, I know it runs at 100fps (why? seriously, why??). The program I wrote has a variable "frame interval" (duration of a "frame" - inverse of framerate), so I just set it accordingly.

Random fun trivia: Jumps seem to have no startup. Hitting 7/8/9, then an attack the very next frame results in an air attack. (Save for when my program's framerate and the game's framerate don't quite keep up with each other )

So I'm pretty sure my Lunaport is configured wrong. =-= That or I'm not allowed to use it.

Checked every once in a while but no one was ever in the lobby, so I just assumed no one really sets up random lobby games. I was bored today so I tried connecting to myself, laptop to desktop. It was taking turns timing out and having an error right after characters were selected, and now I can't connect at all. @_@ What I fear is that the college network just doesn't want me doing any p2p gaming. Can't exactly go open ports for myself, so I'm kinda stuck. （￣～￣;）

Lobby? Are you using LunaportMT? Fairly certain nobody uses that version. I figured it out, but it's much more of a pain than it's worth, compared to regular Lunaport (I believe it's linked on the Vanguard Princess page on the Poverty wiki).

Failing all else, you can just pop on the poverty IRC channel and ask for help.

[Greats]

http://poverty.mizuumi.net/index.php/Lunaport

Is the wiki page for Lunaport, hopefully you don't have LunaportMT unless you grabbed it before i redid the wiki a bit less than a week ago. And in fact, Lunaport .49b does support lobbies, they just don't have a GUI interface.

No, no one uses the lobbies. In the OP you'll see I said that you can go to the #poverty channel on irc.mizuumi.net, or alternatively you could try to contact someone thru this thread.

About jump startup... relatively positive it's 1 frame, meaning if you hold up back on wakeup against a meaty you should get hit. Btw Orphe 6P is a great meaty, 10F active in addition to throw inv.

Also holding up back against good players all the time will get you blown up really easily because in addition to hard countering with an air unblockable move, chaining into a low while you are still in blockstun pretty much beats that for free anyways.

----------------------------

More on the topic of changes I've made to the wiki...

The most obvious change is that I've tweaked around the main page and quick links to hopefully make it a little more acessible. I've also messed around with the FAQ section and Mechanics section. If you see anything missing from those pages please feel free to add it on your own (i check my watchlist from time to time).

As you may or may not noticed before, there is an empty matchup chart on the FAQ page that needs to be filled out! I have played a lot more matchups than I actually have there at the moment... but I plan to try to come up with some values there by discussing with other players sooner or later. If you guys have a matchup you feel you're familiar with please add it.

Also, you'll see at the very bottom a rather junky summarization of the completion level on the character pages. Don't feel offended if it says "lacking a strategy section", It's hard to consider a 1 paragraph summary an in-dept of the character's variety of strategies. Strategy section is actually very open ended in my opinion and depending on the type of chara we're talking about what actually goes there can vary (I think my entry for Orphe is looking pretty good if you want an example, feel free to tell me otherwise).

On a less abstract note, frame data still needs to be copied over. I was thinking of using a JP proxy to make an account and copy their tables. I'm not sure if they use HTML tables or the wiki style tables you see I've pasted examples of onto the character pages, but I'll see when I get to it hopefully this coming weekend.

@NuclearCheese I saw you added Lunathia's frame data with translations that's awesome. If I got the rest of the frame data copied over could you do translations for the notes/moves and such on those as well?

Also some of the pages are still empty! If you like the game I would love it if you could spend some of your free time one day and fill your character's page out if it's not already. You have plenty of examples to go from. I think that having a completed wiki makes it easier for people to get into the game and is good for the community in general.

[agp24]

I think I'm proficient enough with Sabe to add a few things.

[Nuclear Cheese]

About jump startup... relatively positive it's 1 frame, meaning if you hold up back on wakeup against a meaty you should get hit. Btw Orphe 6P is a great meaty, 10F active in addition to throw inv.

Actually, 1F jump startup may be true ... I think I might have had my program set to 20ms frames instead of 10ms frames.

It's still quicker than most games (GG, for instance, has it around 4-7F depending on character).

And Orphe's 6P ... god damn that move is ridiculous. I still can't get past the fact that it has 22F startup (out of 100FPS - equivalent to 13.2F in a 60FPS game). Pretty crazy fast for an overhead that leads to combos easily.

Also holding up back against good players all the time will get you blown up really easily because in addition to hard countering with an air unblockable move, chaining into a low while you are still in blockstun pretty much beats that for free anyways.

Never said reversal jump-outs were a good idea. Just stating an observation about the frame data.

On a less abstract note, frame data still needs to be copied over. I was thinking of using a JP proxy to make an account and copy their tables. I'm not sure if they use HTML tables or the wiki style tables you see I've pasted examples of onto the character pages, but I'll see when I get to it hopefully this coming weekend.

@NuclearCheese I saw you added Lunathia's frame data with translations that's awesome. If I got the rest of the frame data copied over could you do translations for the notes/moves and such on those as well?

Hell, I don't mind copying over all the data and notes, as long as you guys are willing to excuse the fact that I tend to be a somewhat lazy dumbass and can't guarantee I'll have it done immediately.

Also some of the pages are still empty! If you like the game I would love it if you could spend some of your free time one day and fill your character's page out if it's not already. You have plenty of examples to go from. I think that having a completed wiki makes it easier for people to get into the game and is good for the community in general.

I would put up info for Lunathia, but (as people who play me regularly in fighting games may know) I tend to make shit up on the fly more than anything else, so the Lunathia strategy section already has pretty much all I know ("do stuff." ).

(on a related note, I still haven't played around with O-cancelling like you've said I should. >__> )

EDIT - Copied Lynia's frame data to the wiki.