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Blade

The Art of Mixup and Increasing Pressure

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all throws in cs have 7 frames of startup

ib puts you at +5

jump startup is 4 frames

do the math

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also people getting hit by mixup throws (and i do emphasize mixup) isn't that bad dude, lol

i mean, people get hit by ensenga, and that's 30 frames.

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Don't you also get a throw reject miss if you hit any other button? So, if you were mashing DP, and get grabbed. Also, Japan very very rarely gets thrown save command grabs, but people still try it to prevent people from mashing/trying stuff.

EDIT: Also what qwerty said.

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I try to never use Ensenga as an overhead. I think it's too slow and I think everyone who counters it with a running 6P would agree. whatever, maybe my play standards are too high. i'll just leave the thread

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Well mix-up and pressure's purpose, to me, is to get inside of your opponents head so that they make more mistakes. More than likely, when people first pick up fighting games, they go straight for the combos. In my opinion, movement and mix-up are a beginner's first priority. How will you combo them if you can't get to them: How will you combo them if they block everything? Also, mix up is reaction as well.

"mix up is not just Oki, it's Yomi as well" John Stinber

Like with hakumen "will he counter? Will he throw. Will he hotaru. Will kishuu?" but grabs to me seem like unguaranteed damage contingent on something you know nothing about the opponent. But it is very well a fasit in anyone's internal mix up game, weather it be just to get back to neutral with your opponent expecting a break.

Pressure though is nothing more the ability to keep your opponent grounded and limited to what you want them to do.

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I try to never use Ensenga as an overhead. I think it's too slow and I think everyone who counters it with a running 6P would agree. whatever, maybe my play standards are too high. i'll just leave the thread

lol, if it was totally useless, then people wouldn't use it; kinda like throws in bb.

i'm not arguing that it's okay to miss throw break windows in general, but if you're genuinely not expecting it, presence of mind isn't going to save you. at that point it's raw reaction time and that can fail you at the most inopportune of times.

personally, the only throws that hit me in bb are counter hit throws. everything else gets A+B+C'd.

edit: and the reason people get throw reject missed in japan is because they don't react with the option select, since it puts you in a throw reject miss state after the 5 frame window.

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addressing the first post, mixup in bb is primarily one of two things:

1. keeping your opponent honest on the ground

2. air footsies

of course, part of keeping your opponent honest is trying to keep them on the ground, which is really goddamn hard in a game where jumps are faster than everything else and perfectblocking in the air carries virtually no risk. for the most part, all you're really able to do is to try and stuff jumps, which is easier said than done (since smart players only try to jump when they know they can).

air footsies in this game are also pretty iffy since you can perfectblock for so long and air throws are really only used for punishing whiffs (due to aforementioned throw startup + break window). for the most part, you're really just looking for the moment when your opponent isn't perfectblocking or getting on the ground to anti-air them.

okizeme is practically nonexistent in this game, as is anything resembling ground footsies, so at least you're being cut a ton of slack in that regard.

my advice? learn your pokes and learn to instant block. neither is very hard and both will get you ridiculously far in this game.

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Remember, Heat can also play a very big role of getting inside as well.

The best part about it is that you can use it to stop punish and possibly punish someone who jumped the gun.

50 Heat isn't useful if you can't get inside, so why not use it as a way in?

And if I recall, Ragna is one of the most fluid characters to use RC with.

Just remember that if you want to RC your mixup, your attacks should logically lead to a combo instead of a random, uncomboable hit.

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Please forgive my ignorance, but I've seen the term come up multiple times so I'm subsequently wondering what is meant by keeping someone honest.

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One thing I've noticed lately is the ability to turn someone's attempt at mixup into a mixup of their own. Jin seems especially good at this.

One thing I'm having a hard time understanding is reaction time. There's a lot of points where I should be able to slip in attacks while blocking someone else's mixup but am just not fast enough. Things like Jin's 5A 6B, I can't seem to predict in time or deal with without being forced to block it. Or I get in close and get hit with 5A.

Other things, like Ragna's 2A not being fast enough to come out, or Haku-men's 2A that can out-range you and switch to D moves.

Does this have to do with advantage on block?

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One thing I've noticed lately is the ability to turn someone's attempt at mixup into a mixup of their own. Jin seems especially good at this.

One thing I'm having a hard time understanding is reaction time. There's a lot of points where I should be able to slip in attacks while blocking someone else's mixup but am just not fast enough. Things like Jin's 5A 6B, I can't seem to predict in time or deal with without being forced to block it. Or I get in close and get hit with 5A.

Other things, like Ragna's 2A not being fast enough to come out, or Haku-men's 2A that can out-range you and switch to D moves.

Does this have to do with advantage on block?

yes, in the case of Jin's 5A>6B jin's 5A is 9 recovery, and 6B has 25 start up, so you have 16 frames to react. so that's a bad example.

but if he lands 6B (+3 on block with 14 recovery) and cancels into J236C which has 18 start up you have about 1 frame to do something.

basically cancelling the attack changes the static difference (advantage on block), it can create an illusion of being able to get out, or can create the illusion that you can't.

EDIT: also think of mist cancelling where you cancel recovery of an attack by going into the mist stance, cancelling and doing something else.

but this is more pressure (mixups lazy brother) than mixup

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addressing the first post, mixup in bb is primarily one of two things:

1. keeping your opponent honest on the ground

2. air footsies

of course, part of keeping your opponent honest is trying to keep them on the ground, which is really goddamn hard in a game where jumps are faster than everything else and perfectblocking in the air carries virtually no risk. for the most part, all you're really able to do is to try and stuff jumps, which is easier said than done (since smart players only try to jump when they know they can).

air footsies in this game are also pretty iffy since you can perfectblock for so long and air throws are really only used for punishing whiffs (due to aforementioned throw startup + break window). for the most part, you're really just looking for the moment when your opponent isn't perfectblocking or getting on the ground to anti-air them.

okizeme is practically nonexistent in this game, as is anything resembling ground footsies, so at least you're being cut a ton of slack in that regard.

my advice? learn your pokes and learn to instant block. neither is very hard and both will get you ridiculously far in this game.

my god is there anytime your not speaking the truth? this shit is so true...with all the months I spent on BB at the end of the road this is all BB is.

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Its like what Dacidbro told me once,"Do more normals with multiple purposes" on knockdown, throw in an overhead so that, #1. You can score a free combo as soon as it connects, and it makes you seem Psychic. #2. If they block it, It gives you a bit of time to continue the pressure or back down to plan your next move. and yes everything that Qwerty says is legit.

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Ya, oki is generally just covering the tech options you don't want to see in BB. (Punishing forward rolls trying to get out of the corner is the best example of this.)

As for mixup, biggest thing to remember is actually to mix it up lol. Don't get stuck always trying to overhead or go for a throw. (Unless you are specifically training them for later.) Just as an example with CT Hakumen anyway, you can dash towards somebody and have a few options:

dash cancel tsubaki for a quick overhead into combo

dash->throw into combo

dash->214b for a low into combo

dash cancel hotaru to catch jumpers

You also see a lot of people always go for throws off Haku's jabs. So instead, you could jab, then walk up or dash, and do something to punish the throw tech attempt.

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all i did as ct hakumen was make them block 6A and then hope they pressed buttons

they always pressed buttons

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Going to Derail the Topic with a bit of Slick Advise for Mix-ups. Althought Many Would Consider this a Gimmick of sorts, Your Mix-ups are not just limited to your Attacks, but your motions and approachs as well. As a tager you become very Sensitive to these types of things, but sometimes Jumping during a blockstring, and Air Dashing backwards, and taking the time to reaccess your attacks, or even to gauge your opponents Reaction, can assist your Mix-up just a much as Gatling in a mix up.

Also Staggering your Gatlings can also create oppurtunities to land things you might not normally had been able to. when playing against someone with great Defense, sometimes all it takes its allowing an extra frame or 2 pass before going to the next attack, of course you should be option selecting to block/prepare to break throw, should they try a throw attempt or DP. what happens is during gatlings, a person simply has to block the first attack in your string to be set to autoblock mode. Autoblock mode ends when you go low or high, they have to react, however the Autoblock mode will end if you say, instead of 5Axx2Axx5Axx5Bxx2b you Did, 5Axx2A, 5Axx5Bxx2b (Ragna). You would have instead of only having 2 chances to hit (5A and the 2b) you would have had 3 chances to hit (5A, 5A, 2B) Same String Different Timing.

Also Simply Pausing multiple times during Neutral on block moves, gives you the chance to Bait attacks that where meant for another part of your Chain. Lets say your playing against a Bang, Bang will be looking to get a free 2D or 6D off of your block Strings, usually After you press 2B (ragna) you can expect bang to pressing a Drive attack. if you 5Axx2Axx5B (pause), you can gauge to see if that bang is mashing D, or not. if so he would already be preparing to do a D attack, which you will then hit him out of with a 2B, or throw him out of with a normal CH throw.

Of course I may be overstating this as I do not play Ragna, I play Tager. But I find, alot of the time, that attacking at the same pace, from the same angles only gives your opponents more time to study you, if they have good defense. defeating them, is simply a matter of tricking them into believe they arent safe, or Tricking them into believing they are. if you can see your opponents pattern of Riposte, as well as the pattern of timing of their blocks, you learn what they are looking for and what they expect you to do. Sometimes you do what you expect they are expecting you to do, and depending on how well you staged it, you invite them to attack, and well, hopifully, you invited them into an attack, which you are ready for.

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Empty_Vessel, that kind of slow, deliberate, unpredictable guardstring method tends to drive me nuts on defense, thanks for talking about it. Likewise though, could you mention what someone on defense should do against slow-gatling players? A counter-measure out of pressure perhaps?

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Empty_Vessel, that kind of slow, deliberate, unpredictable guardstring method tends to drive me nuts on defense, thanks for talking about it. Likewise though, could you mention what someone on defense should do against slow-gatling players? A counter-measure out of pressure perhaps?

there're a couple ways: have a reversal

or punish the shit out of them, the reason people do a late cancel is to bait an attack and score a counter, but from a frame standpoint this is a bad idea. If you do an attack that's -5 with 10 recovery, and late cancel 5 frames into recovery (0 on block) with something with 15 startup.... you went from -5 to -15....

if you see them doing this and they get too predictable, hit them.

I'd be worried about characters like Ragna who can 5C>2C which is a +1 S-cancel attack with FC, if they late gatling with that..... the risk is very high considering he can do 5K meterless off an FC. Even if they don't late cancel it's scary.

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The Other Method is quite simple, be aware of what you can punish on reaction or rather what you should punish on reaction, and when it is a better option to Instant block, backdash.

There are Several Options for punishing strings on reaction. I.E Ragna's 6B, Bang 5C, any other move that is Essential to a characters mixup, but has a long start up. But honestly, you could Option select 5A or 2A for attacks like that, or even option select normal throws to override several deadly options.

However, There are some Attacks, that Attempting to punish you could be playing a dangerous Game.

When Blocking there are several good times to Reversal (Instant block ID) in this case, Bang again, and for this match up bang has several tools for dealing with an attempt at a certain point in his block strings at high tier play. (this is a CT example btw) but one Such point would be from the 5Axx2Axx5Bxx2B, Gatling. Bang has Several options at this point in the Chain, he could 3C, which you would punish with a Dragon punch, He could stagger a 623B, which may or maynot beat your input out (if you unsuccessfully did the motion or didnt get the IB), Jump cancel into 236DxxAirdash Away, Jump Cancel into instant J.D.

I would if i could edit a video to show this but, if your opponent at that moment had though ahead as to what your options where, he most likely would have chosen a Jump cancel option. Depending on your reaction, there are several things that could happen, but what most commonly happens is this. and I quote.. "Inferno Div...oh shit" or for me "YOU DODGED?!"

however in Either Case...Waiting out for the next action, and reacting to that is usually a better option. 3C punish on block, even if they cancel into 623B or 6D. IB nials = ID if they come foward, time to move forward if they are air backdash. J.D = Air Throw or Delayed Attack for CH.

Would be safer than the other options.

Basically, Knowledge of what you can do, and what your opponent can do, provides you with what you need to be able to defend against most mixups. althought you wont be able to always have the reaction to defend against every assault, having the knowledge prepares you for what comes next. Option Selecting prevents them from being able to do whatever they please. While your Judgement, and knowledge allows you not to fall into baits/traps.

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Can anyone explain frame traps? I don't really get the concept.

okay, so you are doing a pressure string and want to catch the enemy what do you do? maybe I can make them think they can get out, when they really can't. That's what a frame trap is, a false opening. Or atleast that's how I understand it. You use some frame math to create a moment where they think they have enough time to get out, but they can't. Sort of like baiting an escape attempt.

EDIT: yep checked the definition, a frame trap is baiting an escape.

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Can anyone explain frame traps? I don't really get the concept.

It's basically a gatling or link that doesn't quite combo, but will counterhit your opponent if they try to stick a poke in between.

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Can anyone explain frame traps? I don't really get the concept.

see:

all i did as ct hakumen was make them block 6A and then hope they pressed buttons

they always pressed buttons

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Since the Frame Data from CT i dont think is still on the site, I will say for instance there are several pokes that get back from Recovery frames before the recovery frames of said move before the blockstun is over, some cases this allows for a build up of negative frames even if instant blocks are occuring. This Gives your Opponent the ability to do several Things (Offensive option Select.). With you stuck in Blockstun, and your opponent is either able to proceed to the next gatling without risking an opening, allowing the blockstun to run out intentionally, to block or Kara-throw, To Outpoke your Option select poke option.

A Good Example of a Frame Trap, One i think everyone faces multiple times daily online. Ragna's 5Axx5Axx5Bxx2B. Ragna can use that time to block anything you do, go back to a jab, Go into a kara-throw. Hell he could even 2149B(HJ-GH). or he could just 2C you

or like Tager's Volt Tackle. Tager has the ability to 720C you, Kara-throw. Block. Step foward 2B. Even Collider.

For a Frame Trap to be a Valid Frame trap. there needs to be of course several available options.

Also there are some frame traps that just dont work on certain characters but, are murder to other characters.

In these Cases, Calculate the most often used counter moves by said character, by taking the blockstun of the move, minus the recovery Frame, Add the Start-up frames of the moves in mind (5A,2A, DP is a good general starting point). Then you can subtract the start up Frames of the moves you would like to land next, and see the results.

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