The Art of Mixup and Increasing Pressure

[Blade]

I would think by now people would realize that Ragna's pressure is designed to break guards, but some people still use Barrier anyway and get hurt a lot worse than they should against him. That's hindsight, however. Barrier is an anti-pressure tool, so you should use it, but just realize it is an option if you do know they're going for guard break.

Throw Breaking is one of my weakest points when it comes to dealing with applied pressure because:

1. I don't know exactly when the throw is coming but I know it will (because that's how Jin players play online...sigh), I'm only nebulously conscious of when a throw will happen simply because they're right in my face attempting lows and overheads or varying their pressure so that they do two of the same normal because I happen to be guarding (i.e. Ragna's 2B...2B 6B mess).

2. Even if I break the throw there are tricks post-throw-break that add on the pressure (example: if Bang uses his jumping command throw on Tager and Tager breaks it, Bang can do an airdashing j.C , which most Tager's I've played are either unprepared for when they hit the ground, or just have no solid answer to (not yet anyway), short of blocking again. Especially bad in the corner. I know a few things to use after throw-break, but they only work in certain situations (particularly for Ragna, but not many others).

3. Throw breaking involves timing and awareness, and if I'm constantly breaking throws, it's a constant timing game, and I mess up eventually (especially online), Throw Reject Miss just adds to the frustration. I don't know anyone who has a perfectly trained eye for throw breaking when that's all an opponent is going for (particularly tick-throws, wake-up throws post emergency tech, airthrows and such). So usually my problem is keeping them away from me so that they don't get in to throw (especially a problem when using Haku-men).

4. I don't barrier enough when on defensive, and the moment I think to barrier is usually when I'm thrown.

[kirbster]

When I play as Lambda, it's easy to chip away at their primers and when they get in the red, they really have to use their barrier. I find that that's the best moment to throw them since they're not paying as much attention to throws as they normally would. Of course that applies to any character, but Lambda excels in that department.

[Dusk Thanatos]

Blade, just use OS throw tech

[Remius]

Throwing is most effective when the person doesn't see it coming. People say it's easy to react to, but i say it most definitely isn't, but maybe it's because im online -- If im looking to block a move, and get throw'd instead, i usually only notice the green arrows a SPLIT second after the throw is already initiated. You can always jump throws, and apparently OS tech works pretty well on this game, but can cripple you if the person sees it coming...just like everything else in the game. When they get predictable, you can make it a free wiff + punish, or just break it and flip the script on them.

Just get creative with it. It's alot easier to avoid getting thrown than it is to pull one off, though. I think Hakumen and Jin players naturally are some of the best throwers, since people dislike being hit or frozen by them. Im thrown by those two more than any other characters....except maybe Lambda, since her act parser A is a mixup for throwing people who are looking to block > punish her B and C's.

[Dusk Thanatos]

If I tech a green throw it's because I read the throw, not because I reacted in, what is it... less than 13 frames?

Purple throw is fine to tech on reaction, though.

[Blade]

Blade, just use OS throw tech

How would I do that with Ragna, Haku-men, Tager, and Arakune (characters I use most)?

[Dusk Thanatos]

OS throw tech is 1A+B+C

Barriers and throw rejects at the same time, though the throw reject miss window increases. Unless your opponent realizes you're using OS throw tech and tries to TRM you, though, it's tons safer than a naked throw reject if you anticipate getting thrown.

Works for every chara.

[Airk]

If I tech a green throw it's because I read the throw, not because I reacted in, what is it... less than 13 frames?

Yeah, 13 frames, though it's SORTOF 20 if you can see the 7 frames of startup animation. This is the only way you can reasonably "react" to a throw. 13 frames is below what a person can be considered capable of responding to on reaction. Most people who tell you they are "reactively" breaking throws are actually anticipating.

[Remius]

You can't react to green throws. They're like, a half second too fast to react to, especially if you didn't see it coming.

[TD]

l cant react to green throws offline either, however when l suspect someone is about to throw me, l jump/backdash/dp if applicable. you don't necessarily have to throw break all the time unless the situation is forced on you, which is pretty rare outside of certain characters. (throw break is probably the safest option though, if you can react.)

[dragontamer]

Actually, you've got 7 frames for the throw animation, and then 13 frames afterwards (green exclamation up). A total of 20 frames to react against. Definitely within the human reaction time (Human Reaction time is 200 miliseconds. 20 frames is closer to 333 miliseconds).

Its difficult, but just remember, its possible. Furthermore, if your opponent is going to tick-throw you, he'll have to wait till after the cooldown of his attack.

Ex: Noel's 5A -> BC creates a purple throw. If you are going to tick throw, you need to do 5A -> pause -> BC. So arguably, you've got even more than 20 frames to react against, because your opponent needs to slow down before attempting a throw.

-------------

Also, option select throw break is so easy to break. Its called throw-reject miss. 5AABC is the easiest way to punish your opponents option-select throw break attempts. Knowing how to punish option select throw break is absolutely key to pressure IMO.

Edited May 12, 2011 by dragontamer

[TITANIUM BEAST!!!]

I would think by now people would realize that Ragna's pressure is designed to break guards, but some people still use Barrier anyway and get hurt a lot worse than they should against him.

Honestly, Ragna only looks like a guard-breaking machine, in real play it doesn't work out like that unless your opponent is just piss-scared of you. Ragna's mixup game is pretty much standard BB fare, he's like the posterboy for how the game's offense is supposed to work, which is why offensively he is actually pretty average. A good Ragna has to really mix it up to keep the pressure on his opponent, you have to be willing to be random with him sometimes. But hey, that's BB for ya.

[Dusk Thanatos]

Also, option select throw break is so easy to break. Its called throw-reject miss. 5AABC is the easiest way to punish your opponents option-select throw break attempts. Knowing how to punish option select throw break is absolutely key to pressure IMO.

Didn't I mention that OS throw tech is blown up by TRM?

That's only a problem once your opponent realizes what's going on, though. And once they do, it's just a different level of mindgames.

[Blade]

Honestly, Ragna only looks like a guard-breaking machine, in real play it doesn't work out like that unless your opponent is just piss-scared of you. Ragna's mixup game is pretty much standard BB fare, he's like the posterboy for how the game's offense is supposed to work, which is why offensively he is actually pretty average. A good Ragna has to really mix it up to keep the pressure on his opponent, you have to be willing to be random with him sometimes. But hey, that's BB for ya.

This is the big question: how do you get your opponent scared to do anything against someone like Ragna? Litchi, Tager (in some cases), Rachel (in some cases), Bang (in many cases), and Jin (in many cases)...but characters like Ragna don't seem as scary as they should or are supposed to be. Maybe it's due to matchup abuse (i.e. people are used to fighting him), or it has to do with the balance changes, or the fact you have to be constantly thinking of new ways to mess with your opponent's blocking...or something else...I'm not sure, and because I'm not sure, I get stuck in predictable pressure patterns with him, which eventually get caught and punished.

[sergetrigger]

Pressure, tons of pressure. You can't just stop and let them catch their breath, that's gonna be your downfall.

For Bang, or at least for me, he deals a lot of pressure, especially with his nails. It's usually gonna be like "OH AN OPENING! G'DAMNIT POISON NAIL!", "OH I GOT HIM NOW! WTF GUARDPOINT TELEPORT?!" or "AHA! ...fuck 5a" <- My usual reactions during Bang mirrors.

For Ragna, I would say he's scary due to his get-in-yo'-feis style. I'm always eating either a 5D or a 6B when I play against a Ragna, or Outlawassassin... His Ragna was scary. But if you're getting caught in the same blockstrings, try instant blocking and countering with a drive if you're playing as Haku.

[Remius]

This is the big question: how do you get your opponent scared to do anything against someone like Ragna? Litchi, Tager (in some cases), Rachel (in some cases), Bang (in many cases), and Jin (in many cases)...but characters like Ragna don't seem as scary as they should or are supposed to be. Maybe it's due to matchup abuse (i.e. people are used to fighting him), or it has to do with the balance changes, or the fact you have to be constantly thinking of new ways to mess with your opponent's blocking...or something else...I'm not sure, and because I'm not sure, I get stuck in predictable pressure patterns with him, which eventually get caught and punished.

You just have to know how to hit people, plain and simple. Being risky with any character generally only works if the other person falls for it. You have to get in the other persons mind. If they know you're gonna mash 5D, throw out an Inferno Dividah at the first sign of pressure, and always approach with 5B, hells fang and j.C than of course you aren't going to scare anyone. All they have to do is crouch block you.

Ragna's danger comes from the fact that almost all of his moves net you in either the corner or in his face for another blockstring. He has a DP that goes through everything, which can be used to stop people from punishing him and scaring them into not trying anything too risky. (Old, pretty effective trick, Hells Fang pt1, and if they block it, buffer an Inferno Divider. If they try to punish you, you'll get a hit.) Once you have people blocking, you get to try all kinds of things to break through their defenses. Once you start adding Rapid Cancels into his blockstrings, than he really becomes dangerous to people. And on top of that, hes effectively simple to control, with an equally simple moveset...which is what i think is one of his best points.

Most annoying thing ever? Thinking you baited one of Ragna's DP's towards the end of a match, only to have him RC and kill you. Or getting hit with 6B. You can turn Ragna into a pressure machine, you just have to get a little creative first. Learning to effectively Poke with him is really useful, though.

[Dusk Thanatos]

CS1 Ragna burns RCs like no one's business to keep people scared.

There's a reason for that.

[Airk]

Ex: Noel's 5A -> BC creates a purple throw. If you are going to tick throw, you need to do 5A -> pause -> BC. So arguably, you've got even more than 20 frames to react against, because your opponent needs to slow down before attempting a throw.

Only you don't really have more than 20 frames, because you don't actually know if and when he's going to try to throw you, even in a tick-throw situation. If you get over enthusiastic, and throw out your throw tech early, you risk getting a TRM. And at that point, you are really no longer reacting. You're anticipating.

[dragontamer]

Only you don't really have more than 20 frames, because you don't actually know if and when he's going to try to throw you, even in a tick-throw situation. If you get over enthusiastic, and throw out your throw tech early, you risk getting a TRM. And at that point, you are really no longer reacting. You're anticipating.

Thats true. Although, a normal throw break (ie: not Option Select) has a much smaller window to get TRMed. The main thing you need to watch out for IMO is not the TRM, but Throw-punish setups. So while I agree with you, its not because of grabs. Its because counter-hit combos from throw-invulnerable attacks hurt like hell.

IE: 2A -> Tick Throw and 2A -> 6B Mixup for Jin. 6B is airborne so its invulnerable to grabs and in CS1 led to a massive combo on counterhit.

Ragna's danger comes from the fact that almost all of his moves net you in either the corner or in his face for another blockstring. He has a DP that goes through everything, which can be used to stop people from punishing him and scaring them into not trying anything too risky. (Old, pretty effective trick, Hells Fang pt1, and if they block it, buffer an Inferno Divider. If they try to punish you, you'll get a hit.) Once you have people blocking, you get to try all kinds of things to break through their defenses. Once you start adding Rapid Cancels into his blockstrings, than he really becomes dangerous to people. And on top of that, hes effectively simple to control, with an equally simple moveset...which is what i think is one of his best points.

Yes, this trick works pretty well. But watch out for those who are good enough to instant-block the Hells Fang part1, in which case, the -9 frames (on IB) gives your opponent enough time for a decent counter-hit combo. At least, in BBCS1. In BBCS2, its -7 frames, which is still punishable.

Its still effective because your opponent needs to work for that instant-block, but its still something to watch out for. And if your opponent becomes really good at instant-blocking, there's always Hell's Fang -> Rapid, lulz.

Edited May 13, 2011 by dragontamer

[Remius]

yeah rapid anything with ragna works surprisingly well lol

[sergetrigger]

Speaking of instant blocks, I heard that CS2 changed how it works. Is this true?

[mAc Chaos]

+3 instead of +5. Or maybe it was +2.

[toanenadiz]

It is +3 mAc

[Blade]

This IB nerf is troublesome for me when I play against Jin, because I can't take advantage of his near instant normals like I used to, 2C is never fast enough.

I'm not even sure what to do with Ragna after I IB Jin's 214D(2).

[toanenadiz]

FC 2C Blade. Or you could just 5B him.