[CS1] Mu-12 General Discussion Thread

[zreb]

Just happened to think: is it possible to get that frame data Spark posted several months ago on the wiki somewhere?

[FlyingVe]

It's in the Mu-12 guide thread.

[TD]

but the presented data isn't entirely complete. lt fails to tell the level of her moves, and we still don't have complete information on the stein placements (the one we did have got buried...)

[FlyingVe]

True enough. I know Cor did a great write up on stein stuff a few pages back.

The big thing about those is really just that 5D and jD are the fastest.

[C0R]

While I was asking Spark about how to gather Mu's frame data, he mentioned that 5c was level 4, so all the data I collected is under that assumption, the results also seemed to support that. 3c is the same level, with 6c and 2c both being level 5.

I always thought Mu looked a little... jerky, it's because her attack levels are huge across the board.

I'm not sure about B series levels, could probably figure it out though.

Edit: Went and dug up the Stein data so you guys don't have to go looking for it again.

Taking what Spark taught me about frame data I was able to do some testing with d cancels after her c series, meaning we have more frame data.

Was never confirmed before, but she has a 4 frame jump startup just like the most of the cast.

ON NORMAL BLOCK

Ch state ends on the frame after the first number, and Mu can chicken block on the frame after the second number

5d: -4/-8

2d: -6/-10

4d: -6/-10

6d: -6/-10

5c>5d>7AB is -(=/<)4, throw immune on frame 5, air blocking on frame 9

5c>2d>7AB is -6, throw immune on frame 7, air blocking on frame 11

5c>4d>7AB is -6, identical to 2d

6d identical to 2d

I'm not sure if 5d is completely accurate, I'm only so good at parse-frame imputs, but I did run it a good number of tests.

Bascially, if all that info is completely correct, you can cut a frame off the recovery of 5c AND get a stein with 5d. Going to go run tests on her other C's to see how drastically stein cancelling fixes those ugly -20's.

Just confirmed, all above data is also true for 3c, which is the same level as 5c.

2c is a level above 3/5c, therefore is -7 on 5d7 cancel, making 2c her safest C on block. Weird.

6c is also level 5, therefore is also safer than 5c.

Data looks odd, but it's the results, I'll keep running them looking for errors.

Not sure how I feel about 6c being safer than 5c, but 8 frames off the recovery of 3c is pretty nice.

Side note, just yesterday I couldn't find her character combo rate anywhere, so I went and calculated it. 85% same as Lambda's.

[pochp]

At our last meetup, I was playing against one of my friends' Lambda, and it had been a couple of games that he'd used his burst in similar situations. So at some point, I land a 6B with 100 heat in the corner, and I'm 100% sure he'll burst. So I rapid, IB the burst, feel good about myself, and then I don't really know what to do, so I hit 5C, he blocks, I'm disapointed, and then jumps out and it's more or less back to neutral.

So I'm just wondering, in a situation where you read a burst, rapid, and block it, is it possible to punish with a combo? If so, what's the best way to punish, or if you can't, is it worth the rapid? I prefer playing a passive zoning style than rtsd anyways, so getting knocked away isn't a problem.

Also, does anyone have frame data for the amount of +/- on block of the different charge levels of SoD? I'm just wondering at what level of charge it becomes + on block. I'm asking because I like to play around with delaying it randomly against my opponents and therefore I'd be able to know with what I can frame trap the various charge levels. It might also be a good idea to post this info somewhere, the guide thread only says -10 and the wiki only says +10 with max charge... unless I'm blind and this has already been posted somewhere obvious

[Zeromus_X]

If you successfully bait a burst, just do 2B, 3C...into combo. If they're up in the air and/or far away, you may have to just do 6A into combo, or 5C 6C...combo.

The Mu-12 guide thread has some frame data.

[C0R]

For your first question, it's difficult for Mu to punish a predicted burst except at minimum range due to the very slow startup of the majority of her normals. IB'ing the burst however opens a whole new window of opportunities. If you can't land a 6b or 3c starter, feel confident in faster 6a or 2b. It will almost always be worth to to punish a burst for the psycological pressure. If you prove that you can slice your opponent for making sutpid mistakes, he'll give you more breathing room, something Mu craves.

As for SoD, I don't think that specific frame data has been gathered yet. Though its property as a Fatal Counter are delicious, a good player will punish you for the startup as opposed to the recovery. Frame traps can be achieved by late cancels into it, but the startup can't be avoided if they IB'd out of 3c or 5c.

That being said, here's some practical information...

1: -10

~2: difficult to punish, but weak to poor spacing and IB

3: +10

Generally, the longer you hold it the safer you will be on recovery, but trying to hold it won't get you anywhere when the opponent knows there's a punish window on startup regardless of level.

[pochp]

Oh thanks, for the fast answers. About the charged SoDs, it's mostly after blocked command lasers. After a couple of times not charging more than I should, I'll hold it down a slightly longer, and when I'm greedy, the entire way By the way, I'm more after the primers than high/low mixups since some of my regular local opponents just react to my overhead now and that -3 on 6B plus an instant block usually ends up being punished, so I prefer playing it safe.

[C0R]

If you manage to make it past the first levels of SoD, it's usually safe to go all the way. It's more realistic from the defensive standpoint to simply block / reversal than to try and punish mid-charge.

[FlyingVe]

Lvl 3 SoD is not +10 on block I assure you.

Go into training mode and have both characters hold up after blocking SoD Mu will jump first by only a slight margin, it's only about +2.

[C0R]

You know, you're right.

I've been looking for something to do, might as well get the real frame data on all the levels. Brb. :V

[TD]

please do.

[C0R]

I can't find a way to punish level 3 SoD in any way. Even if we include jump startup for Mu's chicken block, effectively reducing how + it is by 4, bang still can't punish with IB > 5a.

Which means it's +9 at minimum on normal block.

Level 2 is some degree of plus, unpunished even in IB circuimstances. I didn't test the hidden level, because hidden level.

In other news SoD3 > RC > SoD3 > 6b > 6A > 6b > 66a > j.c > j.2c > [2b > 6a > j.c > j.2c]x2 > 2b > super is 7982 for a 50 heat starter. Though the first SoD does have to be at minimum range, which is completely unrealistic.

[Zeromus_X]

I thought SoD (full) had pretty good frame advantage. I mean, just look at that blockstun. You get stuck FOREVER if you block it lol.

[FlyingVe]

So lvl2 has frame advantage too? THat's juicy, I always assumed it was slight disadvantage.

[C0R]

Besides levels 1 and 3, it gets hazy and vague, Spark was still punishing me with Air IB Haku j.b on some level, but it might've been a difference between 2 and 2.5. I'm not sure the specifics between levels is really very necessary to discover, as you can never depend on getting out X level of the move at any specific time excepting setups.

[FlyingVe]

But alot of times I release SoD early when I'm playing chicken. It's useful to know I'm still at an advantage.

[TD]

lt all makes sense. but maybe it's much more than 9 frames: Ragna's 5b cannot punish 6c after sod3 or he'll be FC'd. there has to be at least 13 frames of advantage....

[C0R]

Spark and I had a long conversation for the best way to find exact frame data for the sod3, or massive + moves in general, I'll post back when I get a chance to work with it.

[TD]

did any of the mu's here go to winter brawl? there was a mu there and l completely forgot to ask if he was on here. >.<

[C0R]

I have da bestest Mu avatar.

[FlyingVe]

...yep, pretty much...

[Zeromus_X]

It's a pretty avatar...

[Innolis]

*envy*