[CS1] Mu-12 vs Tager

[mundus]

If Mu is in the air spamming steins Tager will advance, thats exactly where we want to be and we have the spark bolt. Basically when Tager has spark you will get hit by it or he will get close you can't dance around it unless the Tager's you fought all suck. For example if DP makes you immune to spark he can just do it after and counter hit you with it.

[whitevoid]

You can delay how you fall for a very long time when you jump by placing steins. This forces Tager to guess when you are going to land or guess when you are in range for sparkbolt. He also has to guess whether or not the laser will hit him out of his sparkbolt. Also, when Mu lands from jumping an placing steins, she can land and DP on reaction if he sparkbolts.

Waiting for sparkbolt is NOT a viable tactic. Stacking steins on him using 6[D] will break his guard fast when used in conjunction with 214D, so he MUST approach. He can't simply block or wait you out to get that sparkbolt.

And that being said, if his only answer to Mu's zoning is to hope he lands a sparkbolt, then that only solidifies this as a horrid matchup. One gimmick isn't enough to even it out.

I don't see how being in the air longer makes it harder for Tager to Sparkbolt you. He's either going to try and hit you on the upward arc (which is anticipation) or he's going to hit you on the downward arc (which is just, you know waiting for you to fall). It's not like you can air dash downward and screw with the downward trajectory speed, so I don't see what this stuff about "guessing" when you're going to land. I mean, I guess if someone is on auto-pilot then maybe sure. But even then it's no more special then baiting an anti-air with a double jump. And you don't have to "guess" whether or not the lasers are going to hit you as you can see the steins far before they shoot. So you wouldn't be guessing, you'd just be learning how quickly they shoot. And of course remember that it's all risk for you with no reward.

And you still get magnetized if you DP the Sparkbolt. At least, I believe that was the result from my testing... I remember being disappointed. And "on reaction" is very, very close. At a certain level of anticipation, yes you can do it on reaction. But without anticipation, you're going to eat that Sparkbolt. I don't even really see why you'd WANT to DP that Sparkbolt, as it's, again, an all risk no reward scenario. I mean just block the thing.

I don't really get that second part. "He can't simply block or wait you out to get that Sparkbolt." As if he could, not at all block and not wait for Sparkbolt? It takes 20 SECONDS to get Sparkbolt online. You CANNOT break 10 Primers in 20 seconds. You CANNOT break 1 primer every two seconds. Unless he opens the match with a burst or just decides to block your first FOUR lvl 3 SoDs for some reason.

And no one said that it "evens it out." I just can't believe people are going saying that by jumping in the air, they have completely trumped Sparkbolt.

[Synthesis]

With the amount of SoD that Mu uses in blockstrings, he's not going to have a full guard meter when she starts to zone. That's just not plausible. Also, Throwing out steins and using 236D before you fall prevents him from sparkbolting you and comboing you because her 236D laser DOES NOT GO AWAY WHEN SHE IS HIT. Why on earth are you going to waste a sparkbolt just to have her magnetized when you then place yourself in a very very risky scenario? A counter hit 236D laser leads to a standard BnB which will send him back to the other side without his sparkbolt, and possibly without Mu being magnetized.

Also, about using a reversal to beat his sparkbolt, I'm not sure if when I did it it just clashed, but I just tested it out again and it does indeed magnetize even then. My apologies.

[Big Red Tie]

you finish setting steins in air

you fall, tager starts sparkbolt, gets hit by charge laser

you win match

unless he moved forward with sledge, in which case you should stop setting steins and try jumping out or landing with j.B

[Wokker]

you finish setting steins in air

you fall, tager starts sparkbolt, gets hit by charge laser

My face when this happens -->

This matchup isnt really hard, just dont get to greedy when rushing down or eat 360/720. Otherwise you can zone him and run away until youve set-up a good stein set-up. Zoning must stop when he has sparkbolt, go into defensive mode and wait it out, do the same with magetism if you get hit.

If the Tager likes to go on defensive, hit him with charged lasers and explosions, and some laser set-ups like this one:

5D, 6D 236D, 6D, 5D, j. 5D, j. 6D

[KojinSagara]

you finish setting steins in air

you fall, tager starts sparkbolt, gets hit by charge laser

you win match

unless he moved forward with sledge, in which case you should stop setting steins and try jumping out or landing with j.B

if the tager is any good at all, and i know it, and after all that zoning and what not im doing he still gets the sprakbolt on me, i burst as soon as it hits, to prevent the followup combo. problem solved. that's all i really need the burst for most of the time. i feel like if im doing what im supposed to be doing in this matchup, and i save burst for that situation then its a wrap.

[Heroic_Legacy]

i burst as soon as it hits, to prevent the followup combo. problem solved.

We can bait that, AC pull and 720 you for it.

To all the Synthesis posts about all Tager has is spark bolt, that'd be wrong. He can get in on you. If I just hold Spark bolt you'll be tempted to either try stein or to wait out the storm. So what if I don't spark bolt? You either go back to zoning or you attempt to space me out with C normals. Both of which Tager can deal with without spark bolt. It's not like you are going to punish everything I do. Same with me. But this matchup is not ridiculously wrong.

[Big Red Tie]

how can tager get in on mu

[Dangle]

how can tager get in on mu

go to tager matchup section imo

[MainG_Jago]

how can tager get in on mu

Tagers like to high jump with j5c which also pushes him forward

he can also come down using j5d or j2c plus he can 236b or a from the start and you will have back away to a corner or else you'll have to deal with him spamming 5a baiting you for a 360

To avoid this i predict what Tager will do in the beginning of each round and if im right its all offense for me. i avoid 360 reversal and back dash with just j2c alone and when he's in i make him second guess make me otherwise he suffers from my combo loop but its still easy for Tager to close in when he patient

[FlyingVe]

how can tager get in on mu

He doesn't really. It's pretty much what Heroic said, it's all about the spark bolt. If Mu baits it or avoids it, Tager's in trouble, but if he hits you, Tager is pretty dangerous up close (for Mu). Also, just having the Spark makes alot of shenangigans super risky. In addittion, things get better for him if you ever let him get Mag. It seems 3.5-6.5 to me, as Tager's options are extremely limited.

@Heroic: You said that Tager can deal with Mu's zoning/spacing without spark. How so? I know he can luck out, but I fail to see a consistent way for him to get in save spark.

[Heroic_Legacy]

You say it 6.5 3.5 but then you say the matchup is dependant on luck? So what does that mean, luck has a better matchup than Tager vs Mu?

Tager does need to fear lasers. A sledging at the right time, j.c goes over some of them, jumping in place, ducking at the right time, the main thing I'm trying to do when playing against a Mu is make the lasers autotarget the air that I was just in while I slowly advance with Lasers going above and below me. The only things I have to wait for is Mu to get impatient and try to C me or something like that. Once Mu makes the initiative to get in Tager's range then it's Tager's advantage. But until then it's more me riding the Vic Viper and heading to get to the core and punch it's face in with Science.

Mu's lasers can easily be diverted and if all else fails you block them and it does miniscule pushblock and guardstun. Doing j.DD at all in this matchup at anytime for Mu is pretty bad because of the long ass activation time. 236D and 236A are pretty much just blocking fodder. Yes, you can move in and rushdown but you know that if you do more than one button you get IB 360A. And 360s animation isn't hurt by lasers unless it's touching him during startup (Which is pretty easy to time.)

And if you truly think you have a mixup game other than crossups and 3C, I dare you. 6B and j.2C are probably the worst moves Mu can use on Tager since they are so punishable on block. Hello 360B/720.

It's a tough fight for Tager, but once he gets in the matchup just turns upside down and Mu usually has to properly time a DP or a burst to get him away to restart the zoning game.

6-4 is correct. But don't attribute it all to luck and spark bolt. I didn't mention Spark until now, and I came up with answers to the most common issues with this matchup.

[TD]

l'm not getting into this, but all i'm saying is that mu can stay fullscreen the entire time.

She has about as much trouble as Litchi under Tager pressure. But honestly. We don't need to get in. Any and all sledges should be useless.

l've seen Lambda v. Tager, and it's practically the same shit. Stay your ass FAR away = Win.

Now everyone has their opinions, but l feel this is 6.5-7 mu's fav.

Feel free to (not) support that

[Heroic_Legacy]

The only sledges I am doing are basically fullscreen if I can't avoid a charge shot or something. I'm not in your face mashing sledge.

And Lambda vs Tager is more 6-4 than anything because Lambda definitely cannot keep Tager away all game without dying.

[TD]

Maybe lambda wasn't the best comparison in this case...

But anyway. About sledge. Of course you're not mashing it!But it's mainly just a defense mechanism considering the times you should use it though. Most of Mu's moves beat it so it's like asking for bnb if used as offense.

[Heroic_Legacy]

And comparing Litchi under pressure to Mu is not even half as correct as you'd think. Mu doesn't have a projectile DP. Mu has a DP that is usable more than once. Mu has a reversal super that is physical. Litchi does not. Litchi under pressure is more Dead Angle than anything since she wants your ass away so she can keep spacing.

If you read my post you'd understand Tager shouldn't be using Sledge at all for offense just as a way to divert lasers for a small time till you can regain footing to start dodging. Seriously man.

[TD]

l wasn't talking about reversing out. We all know Mu can get out of his pressure easy. l'm talking about poking out, not to be mistaken for mashing.

And l did read your post... which is why l summed up sledge in a nutshell...

[Heroic_Legacy]

l wasn't talking about reversing out. We all know Mu can get out of his pressure easy. l'm talking about poking out, not to be mistaken for mashing.

And l did read your post... which is why l summed up sledge in a nutshell...

Everyone can poke out of Tager strings, that isn't anything new. The thing that makes it scary for Mu is that she doesn't have the health to spare in the event she messes up. And who's to say Tager is varying a blockstring into a 360 or a charge somewhere in there? It's a very hard thing to react to Tager pressure accordingly. I was just giving you your best options.

[Big Red Tie]

tager has the advantage on mu at midrange?

and tager can effectively jump on mu? what?

if you believe those two things then i suppose for you timed charge lasers are a bad idea, as is trying to mixup with j.B as well. i guess you could 6C all match?

[Heroic_Legacy]

At midrange we have enough time to react to 6C if it's done at all and punish for it.

Everyone can effectively jump at everyone in this game. I'm not sure what the difference is. It's not like moves are completely unblockable in the air. This isn't Street Fighter or Vampire Savior.

Mixing up with j.B puts you in the range for Tager which is never a smart idea for any character if they can help it. (This is why the Tsubaki matchup is bad)

Spacing with 5C and j.C is the best option you guys have for dealing with Tager but like everything it can be beaten on reaction. (No Blade in this thread to discredit reaction timing)

[FlyingVe]

WTF? Reaction time is sooo over rated. /sarcasm

DON'T USE 6C in this match unless you are punishing something. Tager can sledge right through it and put you in a really bad situation.

I here what you are saying about jump-ins, but given Mu's strong AA a jumping Tager isn't truly threatening. That said, it does move him closer to you (she isn't Nu-13 afterall), but you can push him back out with 5C>SoD. Also, if he jumps you can just run under him and go back to zoning.

Heroic is right, playing up close to Tager just isn't worth it with Mu. 360A works well against her, and getting Mag'd really sucks in this matchup, and playing up close you will probably get Mag'd at some point... then it's really hard to create space.

[TD]

Mu dosen't want close range on anyone though, including Rachel.

[Big Red Tie]

At midrange we have enough time to react to 6C if it's done at all and punish for it.

Everyone can effectively jump at everyone in this game. I'm not sure what the difference is. It's not like moves are completely unblockable in the air. This isn't Street Fighter or Vampire Savior.

Mixing up with j.B puts you in the range for Tager which is never a smart idea for any character if they can help it. (This is why the Tsubaki matchup is bad)

Spacing with 5C and j.C is the best option you guys have for dealing with Tager but like everything it can be beaten on reaction. (No Blade in this thread to discredit reaction timing)

i didn't seriously mean you should 6C tager. sarcasm?

tager cannot jump effectively at mu. she can either run under him, AA JC dash/dj/something else, back dash, dp, j.C, etc.

i don't even remember who i was responding to talking about mixup. j.B is pretty fast, though. and you can also airdash out.

...what does tager use to beat 5C and j.C?

[whitevoid]

Everyone can effectively jump at everyone in this game. I'm not sure what the difference is. It's not like moves are completely unblockable in the air. This isn't Street Fighter or Vampire Savior.

I wouldn't go so far as to say that everyone can effectively jump at everyone... there are differently relative disparities amongst characters and in match-ups.

6-4 is correct though (more or less). Mu != Nu. End of discussion in my eyes.

[Heroic_Legacy]

Just under max 5C range I can 5B and knock you out of your startup. So that's 5B 5C 236A 236A 4 hits and a knockdown on you. Or 5B spark bait as necessary.

j.C I can 2A underneath CH 5C AC ender of choice. Or if you space it really poorly I'll just AC you out of it.

If your frame data is 100% correct if you are magnetized and I block a SoD at max range I can 720 you for it.

On normal block Tager can Spark Bolt you too. IB I can walk forward 3C to get a knockdown/combo.

SoD isn't so smart to use on Tager as much as you like it. And if you cover it with lasers I can just IB B Sledge through lasers and hit you. (-15 from IB SoD so...)