[CSE] Hakumen Q & A: New players check here first

[Phatsanta]

Hello people sry to interrupt your conversation but was wondering if i could have some advice on one of hakumen's combos. I just started playing BB about 3 days ago and have been just going through some of the challenges so bear with me. He's 2D>dash>5B> j.c? (still getting the terminology down)>5A>5B> jump thing again>2A and I think 6C or just C sry. ANYWAY I can't get that 5B after that 5A to save my life. I can get the first 5B after the dash but after jumping into 5A THAT 5B GAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH

[psycofang2]

oi...

you must be speaking of hakumens challenge mode. heres the thing its vs Bangs hit box so you must be precise. when you 2D>hop>5B immidiately jump cancel 5B into jA>jBthen jump cancel again into j2A>jC. you need to be quick, do not delay it. and for terminology heres a list:

these are all from the player 1s side.

5A,B,C,D: standing, or neutral position.

6A,B,C,D: forward (holding your characters forward movement direction)

4: move backwards, also it causes you to block if you are under attack.

2A,B,C,D: (holding the down button)

3: (holding down/forward) mostly just for hakumens 3C (sword sweep)

1: (holding down/back) usually just the down idile stance unless under attack.

7: (holding up/back) causes you to jump back or if you are under attack to jump and guard.

8: neutral upward jump

9: (holding up/forward) jump forward.

SJ : super jump tap 2 then 7 8 or 9 to super jump.

jump cancel: some normals will allow you to hold a jump input as the normal hits. they have different requirements as well.

for example hakumens "2C" (down C) if it is blocked you cannot jump cancel it. but if it hits , while holding 7 8 or 9 you can immidiately jump right after the hit.

D cancel: haku as well as some others can drive cancel. this is a new thing for hakumens. it is pressing his D button as he uses 1 of his drive cancelable normals :5A ,5B,2A,2B,6A and 6B. he cannot drive cancel his c attacks.

as for imputs for example if you wanted to input Gurren (crimson) you would input 214A (down, down/back, back + A) that kinda thing.

[mAc Chaos]

A "cancel" just means you can go straight from one move into whatever the cancel is for. So a "jump cancel" just means you can go straight from that move into a jump.

The timing on that combo is just very tight.

[psycofang2]

i didnt clarify that? OLo???

[mAc Chaos]

i didnt clarify that? OLo???

It can still be confusing to a new player.

[Tofu Warrior]

Leonil, if you see this for whatever reason, tell us how to stop people from jumping out.

[psycofang2]

It can still be confusing to a new player.

ooooh my bad.

[Re4L14124c]

This is a really amateur question, so even if I'm not exactly new...but what's a good way to practice 2C>s.j.2A? it's one of those really useful links that I never bothered to learn. Normally when you do 2C>j.2A, you do a motion of 2>8(or 7, 9)>2, but I'm not exactly sure about super jumping after that; I assume it's 2>5>2>8...but I'm not exactly "which" way to do that.

edit: MacChaos; it might make sense if you also explain to them why it's considered canceling; there's a start up to each move, and canceling takes away from that start up, hence why it's called cancelling.

[psycofang2]

well imo its easier if i 2C>1>9>j2A>delay>>AD>j2A>JC

also if you play with sound listen for his voice and immediatley f.j2C into 2C when you hear the start of his voice. with out sound (like me) i count 1 in my head then do it. now i just do it on the norm.

[SimpleKiss]

What can Hakumen do about opponents that like to jump out of pressure? I know if they block a 2A and try to jump out, chaining another 2A will catch them. That's only really scary with 4 stars though. There's the obvious option of jump after them and air throw, but that's pretty unsafe if you guess wrong.

Meaty 6.A is a good option on people that like to jump after a knockdown in the corner, and it links to 5A -> j.A -> j.b -> j.2A -> j.C

2C is another option, just to get damage, but make sure you have enough meter to guren after to make it safe if they just block.

2A ->6A will catch them too unless they barrier, and like I said above, it links into 5.A for that small amount of damage. Overall, I don't let it bother me when people jump away from my pressure. If they Jump back, they're just cornering themselves. If they jump forward, I have a list of responses depending on the character and situation, if they super jump forwards, try to Air dash, etc.

[Tofu Warrior]

Thanks for the reply, but I decided to put some time in training mode and figured some things out on my own (which I probably should have done to begin with lol). Your options are good, and they're among the ones I found, but they're pretty unsafe. I've been having the most success with just linking 2As until one catches and then hit confirming that into a combo lol. You have to link them more slowly if your opponent is barrier guarding on the ground. Also linking a Renka after 2B works really well too. Make your opponent block two 2Bs, then link a Renka; you'll be surprised how often it works because they think they're pushed out far enough to jump away safely. Also 2A > Gurren will wall bounce jumpers, which is nice.

You're absolutely right though, I shouldn't preoccupy myself with punishing opponents for jumping/back dashing out. I try to punish them for it, but sometimes it backfires. I should be happy that they're giving up positioning.

[mAc Chaos]

How about stopping roll outs in the corner? If you get Lambda in the corner, for instance...

[Spark]

5C or 2B will hit people when they roll. 5C will hit them even if they end up a bit behind you.

[mAc Chaos]

Is that something I could throw out expecting a neutral tech but would catch a roll anyway, or would I have to wait for the roll and THEN do it? It matters since if it's the latter I'd have to basically give up the wakeup game.

[Re4L14124c]

well imo its easier if i 2C>1>9>j2A>delay>>AD>j2A>JC

also if you play with sound listen for his voice and immediatley f.j2C into 2C when you hear the start of his voice. with out sound (like me) i count 1 in my head then do it. now i just do it on the norm.

Huh, a 1. I'll try that.

Talking about wake up game, I thought Hakumen doesn't really have one. Both 6A and 5C (and 2B; see Houtenjin) are really vulnerable to wake up counters, so I never actually use them in an actual game; and if I remember right, quick tech also makes the poke come out faster than either of the two. So if there actually a more assuring wake up game??

[mAc Chaos]

OK, 5C catches tech rolls, but 2B doesn't when I try it. If I do a 5C in case they roll, and they neutral tech instead, what should I do from there? 5C would kind of reset the situation back to neutral kind of so I'd want to start pressuring them in the corner again... would it be better to cancel into something like Renka or 623AA to move in on them again? HOW DO I KEEP THEM FROM ESCAPING.

Whenever I can actually get them to neutral tech and take my ghetto Haku pressure / mixup, I destroy them. I guess they just decided, "Screw it, if I'm going to die anyway I might as well do it trying to escape."

I'm just trying to think of a way I can catch tech rolls without explicitly committing to a move that would leave me hung out to dry if they don't tech roll, kind of like Jin and his 5B or 2B, which can catch rolls but is also a good move to throw out in general to continue pressure.

Yeah, Haku doesn't have a wake up game, except throwing Hotaru in their face as they get up in case they try to do something. But I'm just trying to stop roll outs, because I was doing well against Lambdas until they started fearlessly rolling out of the corner every single time, and now it's impossible to beat them. :P

What I used to do in CT was back off a little, and grab them out of their tech roll. It worked every time. But if they neutral teched, then I actually was far enough away to make it hard to get back in on Nu and it's the same with Lambda, even though they're still close and I'd lose my corner knockdown. I guess I'll start trying that again though.

EDIT:

Also, I found that 6B also stops tech rolls. Couldn't 2A do that too?

[Re4L14124c]

2A's unsafe as a tech roll wakeup counter; a fistful of snakes and dividers in my face if I try.

What I do now when I get corner pressure is pretty much backstep and then...wait. Since Hakumen has 4C and j.C now, it's easier to keep the opponent in the corner; much safer and productive in the long term than trying for oki with his limited options.

But if you really want to try stop tech rolls, I'd recommend 2B, actually; the one that didn't work for you. It has a rather weird timing, but since it's hitbox is so low and small, a lot of moves go over hakumen, so you can cancel into 2A>grab or 214A (I think...) or Renka for further damage. I'd like to think it's the best option for countering rolls. Problem with this is that I know this Hazama who's trigger happy with Jayoku, so wake up game is just a plain bad idea for me nowadays.

[Spark]

Problem with this is that I know this Hazama who's trigger happy with Jayoku, so wake up game is just a plain bad idea for me nowadays.

(Something I've been messing around with)

2B to force a neutral tech, then do a dash so you're in the middle of your dash as he recovers from the tech. If he does Jayoku the super flash will freeze with you in the middle of your dash so you can cancel into j.214B (because Jayoku is 6+1) to beat it out. If he does nothing you just recover from your dash right next to him and can go for what ever.

[Re4L14124c]

(Something I've been messing around with)

2B to force a neutral tech, then do a dash so you're in the middle of your dash as he recovers from the tech. If he does Jayoku the super flash will freeze with you in the middle of your dash so you can cancel into j.214B (because Jayoku is 6+1) to beat it out. If he does nothing you just recover from your dash right next to him and can go for what ever.

That sounds really hard to do, but I'll practice.

[Mikeomak]

So it seems like RCing isn't a big part of Haku's game. I was thinking and would it be broken if Haku-men's RC cost less than 4 stars?

I know this will most likely never happen, i was just theorizing.

[zdravkelja]

The only time you should RC is after backthrow in the corner.

[Mikeomak]

I know that, but if it cost less stars would it be more usable like during combos and stuff?

[Tofu Warrior]

I know that, but if it cost less stars would it be more usable like during combos and stuff?

Of course, the potential for some dirty mix ups would be endless. But as it stands right now, it just isn't economical to RC anything outside of corner back throw RC (which we won't have to do in CS2 ).

Like it says in the combo thread, an efficient use of stars in combos should work out to 1 star = 1000 damage.

[Sophisticat]

I could see a 2-star RC greatly benefit his mixup, though it would perhaps be too strong (3c -> RC -> TK Tsubaki for ex.). It's still meter-intensive, so maybe it balances out.

But as it is, Haku doesn't really need RC since his pressure doesn't need it to be safe.

[Mikeomak]

Why doesn't 2C create a void and goes through projectiles?