Jump to content

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Ginseng

[CS1] Tsubaki Yayoi - General Discussion 2.0

Recommended Posts

Can you give examples of oki-type attacks that can be "easily jumped out of"? Seems to me one has to tech first, and that you have vulnerable frames while doing so - I don't think any of the various rolls or techs are jump cancellable?

Also, what loctest changes do you feel are "not helping"? Or did you just mean that in the literal sense of "not improving it" rather than the somewhat traditional sense of "actually making it worse"?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sorry, I should have chosen my words more carefully. That was my completely my fault, and I apologize OTL. I ment most moves can be easily tech’d out of (how I thought this was “jumping out of” is beyond me >___>) if you’re just saying that any move such as 2a (since we’ve used this before) is oki. I will admit that there are moves that can be considered oki but they’re not as effective as they could be for an oki game. Jin’s ice sword is good because you have to either tech or roll out of it. If you tech out of it you’re okay but if you roll then it’s a reset. BB has oki but there’s so little of it.

I also ment that the loketests aren’t helping because they’re not improving it. They’re making certain moves air-unblockable (unless you barrier) so you have less ways to pressure your opponent as they’re waking-up. This can change of course since it’s only a loketest.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I also ment that the loketests aren’t helping because they’re not improving it. They’re making certain moves air-unblockable (unless you barrier) so you have less ways to pressure your opponent as they’re waking-up. This can change of course since it’s only a loketest.

Lolwut? How does making more moves air unblockable give you less ways to pressure. The whole point of adding this was to make it so that pressure would be slightly less shit in BB. Jumping back and jump back barrier in any situation where you're defending was broken cause it was like a free pass out of so many things, since air throws suck in BB. Making more normals air unblockable gives the opponent more reason to actually learn to block instead of just holding 7A+B the whole time.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Really? Because the way it was described to me when I asked was that if you were the one who knocked your opponent down and you try to keep up pressure by going into the air, they can use their air unblockable moves so you only have certain ground attacks to use, if you have them, in an oki game. Like I can understand why they're good to have but I am still just a bit confused.

I'm will admit that I'm still learning though, so it's nice to be corrected and see other points of views.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Wait, are you trying to say that you're in the air as they get up? If you were just jumping and attacking without making sure the opponent won't retaliate, they could just toss out an anti air/DP on wake up and then that's that. The fact that more moves are air unblockable has nothing to do with this, take Ragna's 5B for example. Just because it's air unblockable now, it doesn't mean it's an anti air. It has no invul frames, nor does it have any sort of head invul. Tossing that out as an AA is no different than using a move that isn't air unblockable like his 5C for example. Just jumping like that and attacking, leaving yourself perfectly vulnerable is like jumping in on someone buffering a DP in SF. It's not oki, just being careless and asking to be combo'd. I really don't think some people truly understand what oki is >_>

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Oh okay I see, that makes sense. Thank you for explaining it to me and yes, it appears my understanding/thoughts on oki were wrong making my other posts' points invalid. I'm sorry for giving misinformation.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ok, we have now been through 4 location tests. I have looked through Tsubakis change but honestly, I don't think I grasp the true impact of the changes. Personally I think the system changes alone make her a bit better with guard breaking becoming more important and the general damage nerf for everyone, she might not be too bad!

How do you all feel about the changes to Tsubaki and how system changes relate to her?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Everyone's damage getting nerfed is a-ok by me. We might end up in B-tier just from that.

Our primer removal is still awful, though.

It is? I looked at Tsubakis Frame Data and it sure seemed like 22C would be safe to throw into a block string.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
It is? I looked at Tsubakis Frame Data and it sure seemed like 22C would be safe to throw into a block string.

Unfortunately it is not, but this may be her best guard breaking bet.

It is -3 and has a 20 frame startup. However if you can get a fully charged one off, that'll be +10 for you, but I think the only way to get the use from that would be to RC, and it could be argued as to whether it is worth doing.

Best time to use 22c is usually after a 5B?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Why would you ever 22C from 5B. There's more options you could do off it like its jump cancel into shenanigans or TK 236C>mixup, dashing and doing a second 5B>whatever, etc.

Imo, the most effective time to use 22C is for a frame trap if your opponent blocks 3CC. The 20 frame start up is risky on IB, but normally you'll probably get a juicy CH if your opponent falls for it. You could also swap out 22C for 22D in this scenario to start a mugen/2 charge combo instead of being predictable and relying on the reset.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's also nice to get people used to blocking the sword for later 22d reset tries. 22c is also the safest special you can realistically end a string with if you don't/can't want to jc or cc.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Why would you ever 22C from 5B. There's more options you could do off it like its jump cancel into shenanigans or TK 236C>mixup, dashing and doing a second 5B>whatever, etc.

Imo, the most effective time to use 22C is for a frame trap if your opponent blocks 3CC. The 20 frame start up is risky on IB, but normally you'll probably get a juicy CH if your opponent falls for it. You could also swap out 22C for 22D in this scenario to start a mugen/2 charge combo instead of being predictable and relying on the reset.

I only do a 2cc sometimes after a 5BB because it's safer.

The funny thing is that the frame trap is normally what I do, but it's riskier, hence to why nowadays I do not use it so often.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Or play Ragna YEA!

I think you need to replace Ragna with Bang or something now. Ragna looks like he's gotta get Teh Nerf Stiq. :P Even though he's not top tier. /confused.

Anyway, yeah, I'm worried that the changes in the importance of Guard Breaking are going to be bad for Tsubaki because A) It's not like she's got a lot of primers and B) She's incredibly bad at primer breaking unless they've changed something about her moves. (Note: This is not out of the question. I don't really get the feeling we've gotten a particularly comprehensive feel for the changes, and they'll probably throw some more in before final, so for all we know, all D-button special moves could end up breaking primers or something. :P )

But yeah, overall, I don't have a feel for...well, even which changes are still in from earlier loctests, nevermind the overall impact. =/

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I still fail to see the reason primer breaking is of any importance to Tsubaki. That's not what she's supposed to be good at. Go play Lambda if you wanna break primers or something.

I think you missed the entire point of discussion. Everyone is likely going to need to learn how to break primers at some point in the new game. Bang bursts and suddenly he has 2 primers. That is going to be a prime situation to make him sweat. He would have to risk Danger mode. That is why I brought it up. Plus, from what I can tell, most don't actually have a safe way to remove primers.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I was wondering if there was any new info on Tsubaki from the 4th loketest. I didn't see anything.... though that may be a good/bad thing depending on how you look at it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I think you missed the entire point of discussion. Everyone is likely going to need to learn how to break primers at some point in the new game. Bang bursts and suddenly he has 2 primers. That is going to be a prime situation to make him sweat. He would have to risk Danger mode. That is why I brought it up. Plus, from what I can tell, most don't actually have a safe way to remove primers.
Gotcha. Didn't really bother reading the discussion XD. Regardless, the best she can do it 22C, meaty 214C assuming you're not facing Ragna or something, or a 236C/j.214C RC. None of these are particularly good options, with 22C being the only real applicable option. There's not much to really capitalize on with her for this that's not some combo video impractical set up.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I was wondering if there was any new info on Tsubaki from the 4th loketest. I didn't see anything.... though that may be a good/bad thing depending on how you look at it.

Sounds like they have a good idea of what to do with her instead of making last minute changes.

I eagerly anticipate how she'll turn out after the patch.

Gotcha. Didn't really bother reading the discussion XD. Regardless, the best she can do it 22C, meaty 214C assuming you're not facing Ragna or something, or a 236C/j.214C RC. None of these are particularly good options, with 22C being the only real applicable option. There's not much to really capitalize on with her for this that's not some combo video impractical set up.

214C actually puts Tsu at a frame advantage on block so I reckon we can use it much like Jin's 6D in block strings. If they see it coming, they can just hit us out of it but if they block it, they're in for another block string.

Also, the good thing is that 236C is one of the fastest, longest ranged guard breaking move in the game. Given you have an opponent with one primer left and no barrier, you can practically spam 236C and they're just going to have to jump around dodging it, throwing off their usual game style significantly.

The important thing to remember is not so much we absolutely need to break primers but rather that we can at a variety of distances and situations making us more of a threat in rush down situations.

All in all, a good thing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I think you need to replace Ragna with Bang or something now. Ragna looks like he's gotta get Teh Nerf Stiq. :P Even though he's not top tier. /confused.

that might be true among top tier players. but it's just so easy to rack up insane damage as ragna, even if you haven't learned any combos. so the nerf may apply more to beginner and intermediate players.

also i guess i'll be hanging out in this tread a lot - hi! i'm pretty scrubby, but decided to post occasionally now that these threads no longer look like random strings of numbers and gibberish to me.

i don't care if she's low tier, tsubaki's just too much fun to play. it's such a rush when you start winning regularly with her, too... I beat a pretty good tager today and i'm stoked.

anyway, subscribing to this thread. looking forward to learning from all of you :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
But guys! What about her normals!? :D

-__-;;

Yay for... 5C air "unblockable"... yay.

*cries in a corner*

I would much rather like 5C to have a better forward hitbox since I hate whiffing 5C after 6A overhead. It's happened so many times that I don't even go for 5C after 6A anymore and just got straight into 236A-> follow up which is basically me gambling that "the overhead will definitely hit!" or get punished for a free combo of their choosing.

All for the awesome payoff of around 1300 damage without charge/meter.

Ah, now I remember why I've been playing Valk more lately....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
-__-;;

Yay for... 5C air "unblockable"... yay.

Where are you getting this info from? All I've seen about this stuff is that everyone will be getting "some" sort of "air unblockable" normal, not any specifics on what normal that would be for anyone.

Though to be honest, what they're trying to do with those doesn't seem that relevant to Tsubaki - the "air unblockable normals" thing is supposed to help stop people jumping out of blockstrings. Who jumps out of a Tsubaki blockstring? :P Anyway, 5c would be the best choice for that purpose (or maybe 5BB) erm...unless they kept that whole "can gatling from 2BB back into 5BB" thing, in which case 5B might be a good choice after all... but either way, it's not going to do what they want it to do, because it only creates ONE spot in the blockstring where people can't jump out. In fact, I fail to see how this change is meaningful for ANYONE, really. Getting ONE attack that can't be airblocked without barrier isn't really going to change the ability of people to jump out.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The 5C info is something I read in loktest 3 thread.

It was first thought to be 5B but then later they said it was 5C that was the move that must be barrier guarded in the air.

The overall significance of many normals being that way will make a big impact of people trying to jump out of block strings and yes, people do that all the time. Especially those characters with small frame jumps... it's an anti everything to all your option selects including charge cancel gimmicks to overheads.

I just don't know how I would use 5C in a way that you could say, use Ragna's 5B to poke people off their jump back motion before they can get their barrier motion. It just doesn't have the range and the recovery time is long and without a hit/block, we can't even charge cancel it.

Meh... I really need to get the new patch sooner than later so I can stop rolling ideas in my head and actually start trying some stuff out myself.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

×