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Ginseng

[CS1] Tsubaki Yayoi - General Discussion 2.0

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The 5C info is something I read in loktest 3 thread.

It was first thought to be 5B but then later they said it was 5C that was the move that must be barrier guarded in the air.

Wait... wasn't Loctest 3 BEFORE they announced their intent to give everyone an air unblockable? I also don't see anything in the Loketest3 summary about Tsubaki's 5C becoming air unblockable. Got a link or anything? I feel like I'm missing something.

The overall significance of many normals being that way will make a big impact of people trying to jump out of block strings and yes, people do that all the time. Especially those characters with small frame jumps... it's an anti everything to all your option selects including charge cancel gimmicks to overheads.

Yes yes, I understand the point of jumping out, but Tsubaki has weak mixup and very loose blockstrings, so she seems like one of the opponents that people would be least concerned about needing to jump out of. More importantly though, changing 5B wouldn't HELP with this, unless you're just suggesting that people are jumping out of your blockstrings before you even start them? I thought the whole point of this change was to keep people from jumping out mid-string?

I just don't know how I would use 5C in a way that you could say, use Ragna's 5B to poke people off their jump back motion before they can get their barrier motion. It just doesn't have the range and the recovery time is long and without a hit/block, we can't even charge cancel it.

Again, this isn't how I understand it's supposed to work. The idea I had was not that you were supposed to "poke" people with the attack, but that it was supposed to tighten the blockstring because if someone tried to jump out of that particular attack, they would instead get hit because there's a tiny window before they can air barrier. There's no way you could use it as a responsive poke, because the "no air barrier" window is like 3 frames or something?

I think we have two different ideas of what this change is supposed to do.

Edit: I got my impression that this was supposed to stop MID BLOCKSTRING jumpouts by the fact that people were talking about how it's not possible to jump WHILE barrier guarding anymore. I assume that if someone is barrier guarding, that they're already blocking.

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Sounds like they have a good idea of what to do with her instead of making last minute changes.

I eagerly anticipate how she'll turn out after the patch.

214C actually puts Tsu at a frame advantage on block so I reckon we can use it much like Jin's 6D in block strings.

Except that unlike Jin's 6D, 214C has like 4802374981274 start up frames. No one is ever gonna fail to react to this unless they were blind.

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Except that unlike Jin's 6D, 214C has like 4802374981274 start up frames. No one is ever gonna fail to react to this unless they were blind.

So it will be STELLAR in Tsubaki mirrors?

To be honest I'm afraid that Tsubaki will still be rather weak when everything is said and done. Even if she charges faster, even if she can (somewhat) safely knock off a primer, she'll still have trouble getting in, keeping her pressure up, and being forced to go for gimmicky 22D resets for everything.

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Except that unlike Jin's 6D, 214C has like 4802374981274 start up frames. No one is ever gonna fail to react to this unless they were blind.

So it will be STELLAR in Tsubaki mirrors?

stopit.png

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And a simple blind joke begins the derailment.

Really though, I don't recall any of Tsubaki's normals or gatlings being changed in any meaningful way, so she'll still probably be trash (I will still play her forever).

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And a simple blind joke begins the derailment.

Really though, I don't recall any of Tsubaki's normals or gatlings being changed in any meaningful way, so she'll still probably be trash (I will still play her forever).

Like I said earlier, everyone else's damage got nerfed. Even if she stayed the same, it'd still be a lot more even than before.

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So it will be STELLAR in Tsubaki mirrors?

To be honest I'm afraid that Tsubaki will still be rather weak when everything is said and done. Even if she charges faster, even if she can (somewhat) safely knock off a primer, she'll still have trouble getting in, keeping her pressure up, and being forced to go for gimmicky 22D resets for everything.

Well, assuming j.214D is still a high as it's been changed to in one of the earlier loketest, You get like a 13 frame

overhead by TKing it off 5B or something. It's also usable as a combo starter by running>2B>launch after it, 6C near corner, 236D, whatever. The new 2BB>5B gatling lets you jump cancel more stuff so you don't get IB>reversal raped all the damn time ( >:[). Then there's how 2C is godly now since you can jc it on block, as you'd get smacked into 3k every time you throw it out too late and they block it on the ground >_>. Those alone bump her up to CS1 Lambda tier already imo, which is perfectly playable.

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Like I said earlier, everyone else's damage got nerfed. Even if she stayed the same, it'd still be a lot more even than before.

Actually you're wrong about that. The damage has been nerfed, but the properties and hitboxes remain unchanged for most of the normals. Since Tsubaki's normals usually lost vs other normals, she still has to spend most of the time blocking, and hoping people don't mash out of her pressure. The main difference here is that it'll take one or two more combos to win vs Tsubaki. That's it.

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Actually you're wrong about that. The damage has been nerfed, but the properties and hitboxes remain unchanged for most of the normals. Since Tsubaki's normals usually lost vs other normals, she still has to spend most of the time blocking, and hoping people don't mash out of her pressure. The main difference here is that it'll take one or two more combos to win vs Tsubaki. That's it.

...

I hate the truth.

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Well, assuming j.214D is still a high as it's been changed to in one of the earlier loketest, You get like a 13 frame

overhead by TKing it off 5B or something. It's also usable as a combo starter by running>2B>launch after it, 6C near corner, 236D, whatever. The new 2BB>5B gatling lets you jump cancel more stuff so you don't get IB>reversal raped all the damn time ( >:[). Then there's how 2C is godly now since you can jc it on block, as you'd get smacked into 3k every time you throw it out too late and they block it on the ground >_>. Those alone bump her up to CS1 Lambda tier already imo, which is perfectly playable.

Thanks for that! I had entirely forgotten about j.214D, though I still don't like having to use charge in her mixup, but hell Tsubaki will take what she can get. She's still rife with problems though :8/: I mean, things like JCable 2C are nice and all, but meh. I just want 5D instant 1/3 to 1/2 bar that is faster than 2D is now to allow some nice cc pressure :kitty:

... So it's just another sad day in the Tsubaki threads ]:

At... at least... she probably isn't going to be WORSE?

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... So it's just another sad day in the Tsubaki threads ]:

Isn't this how we normally are? A sad day in the Chewy threads is like a laggy day in CS netcode. Whereas a happy day is like a rainy day in the Sahara.

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Lets try to be happy! Maybe there are hitbox adjustments that we don't know about...

A new dawn will rise eventually, stay positive! (or prep a sub)

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Beh, I'm quietly optimistic about Tsubaki's fate after the patch.

Hell, as long as she somehow doesn't get any worse in the scale of things, I'll be happy.

As long as she's still fun to use, it's all a wash in the end.

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Still trollin' down the river

l personally like low tier tsubaki. No excuse for opponents if they lose, PLENTY of excuses if you lose (if you're the sore loser type), hella fun, incredibly easy to play, etc etc

This fellow is happy

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Well I would put down a list of changes, but I feel it's kinda pointless to do it until the final release lol.

Anyways if 2C is jcable, and j.214D is an overhead...Hmmm I don't think that's bad, except j.214D is pretty gimmicky if you use it as a TK-ed overhead. Because if it gets blocked or read, well lol :D. Oh well, we'll see what happens by the final release. Any other changes that are notable?

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Hell, I'll do it Ginseng. Only took like, 5 minutes. My apologies if I missed something that was said IN the thread. Please correct any errors you see!

* 5D charges faster and fastest recovery? It really varied between loketests. Not sure.

* 2D starts out slow but the charge speed rapidly increases, recovers slower? CC with it felt riskier.

* jD charge speed increased

* Charging places Tsubaki in CH state for startup, active, and recovery frames.

* 5B more strong

* 6BB has more range

* 2BB>5BB possible (can't input 2BB twice)

* 2C is jump cancellable on guard

* 2CC doesn't float much

* 3C > 214D is possible.

* 22C finisher seems to net around 2 stock instead of 1.

* 22D wallbounces only on CH, on normal hit you must follow up with 236D midscreen, in the corner, you can use normals.

* 236A higher proration

* 236D might be a level higher?

* 236 > 214 doesn't combo, but 236 > 22 does.

* 214A, essentially useless?

* 214x has increased untechable time? (2A>5BB>2BB>5CC>214A>22C>3C possible)

* 623A on counter hit, untechable time decreased so cannot follow up

* j236A has more startup, and can't be used in combos.

* j236C has some lag when you land.

* j214x all are overheads

* j.214C can be charge-cancelled; E.g. j.214C > j.D > more air combo.

* Cannot cancel into any move from throw, throw slides. mid screen do 236D to follow up, in corner 6C, 214C and maybe 214D work.

* Air throw bounds the opponent, you can follow up pretty easily

* j.CC>j236D>j214D: The light orb from j236D will hit

* 5D charges faster and fastest recovery? It really varied between loketests. Not sure.

* 2D starts out slow but the charge speed rapidly increases, recovers slower? CC with it felt riskier.

* jD charge speed increased

* Charging places Tsubaki in CH state for startup, active, and recovery frames.

* 5B more strong

* 6BB has more range

* 2BB>5BB possible (can't input 2BB twice)

* 2C is jump cancellable on guard

* 2CC doesn't float much

* 3C > 214D is possible.

* 22C finisher seems to net around 2 stock instead of 1.

* 22D wallbounces on only on CH, on normal hit you must follow up with 236D midscreen, in the corner, you can use normals.

* 236A higher proration

* 236D might be a level higher?

* 236 > 214 doesn't combo, but 236 > 22 does.

* 214A doesn't float, essentially useless?

* 214x has increased untechable time? (2A>5BB>2BB>5CC>214A>22C>3C possible)

* 623A on counter hit, untechable time decreased so cannot follow up

* j236A has more startup, and can't be used in combos.

* j236C has some lag when you land.

* j214x all are overheads

* j.214C can be charge-cancelled; E.g. j.214C > j.D > more air combo.

* Cannot cancel into any move from throw, throw slides. mid screen do 236D to follow up, in corner 6C, 214C and maybe 214D work.

* Air throw bounds the opponent, you can follow up pretty easily

* j.CC>j236D>j214D: The light orb from j236D will hit

* 236236C still projectile. DP probably is too.

* 236236C has more invincibility


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Sorry to spoil the party guys, but I believe tsubaki will still be trash.

Arc doesn't seem to understand why she is sucky sucky right now. I guess since cause no one in japan plays her anymore it's hard to get input on what to do to make her better.

The current loketest changes just show me that they don't know what to do with her.

They tried to create a ragna like character, but in the end they oversimplified her so much that she ended up being complete gutter trash.

Arc doesn't seem to understand:

1. She needs better normals. Those hitboxes need to be increased.

2. More gatlings. It's almost impossible to hitconfirm with her.

3. Actually make her solid. If they want to make her gimmicky, fine, but she has so little gimmicks and you end up using the same redundant gimmicks over and over. Any decent opponent won't fall for the same thing twice.

4. 22D doesn't work anymore.

5. Make mashing against her not so ridiculously effective.

6. Why does she have so much trash that never gets used: 236 B/C, 214 B/C, j.236 B/C, j.214 A/B. Take all that trash out and replace it with....I don't know, maybe useful moves. Even her 236A, 214A, j.236A, j.214C are just combo filler, and are completely useless out of it. Why is that?

7. Why aren't ALL her D moves, except her D dp, safe on block? So I'm wasting a charge to put me at a disadvantage on block? Sounds like a nice idea arc.

8. Actually give her a useful FC.

9. Make Mugen worthwhile and simply not for trolling. Funny thing is, you would have gotten more damage if you had used your charge and meter separately, than if you enter into mugen during a combo.

10. Why can't she charge cancel all her normals?

11. What makes her unique from the other rush down characters besides "I need to destroy my oki to get something that makes me average the same damage that they do"?. Over-used gimmicks?. Even with the loke changes THERE IS STILL ABSOLUTELY NO REASON TO USE HER INSTEAD OF BANG/JIN/RAGNA.

Those are just a few of the problems I still saw with her even after all they so called "tsubaki buffs" and nerfs came pouring in. I personally think she'll still be trash in CS2. She needs a total revamp, like Nu - Lambda overhaul, and that most likely won't come till BB3, if it even comes at all. I don't know what could happen to her in the final build, but if the changes are any indication of what arc thinks is the way to fix her, then it's obvious that they have no idea as to why she sucks.

Once plat hits I'm done with tsu. I'll tie her up with a rock and toss her down the nearest lake. I like a character that gives me options and tools to work with. Hell, rachel might not deal enough damage, but she actually has stuff to work with. Tsubaki on the other hand is just......It's hard for me to let go. My eyes are pouring as I'm typing this, but I just can't keep HOPING that my gimmicks work anymore. I need stability and consistency in a long term relationship. One based on SOLID foundations, lol. I wanna use a real character....I don't wanna troll any longer.

Plat is shaping up to be both a troll, and possibly a good character. So I get the best of both worlds <3. Even if plat ends up being low tier, I don't care. I just want a character that gives me options to work with.

Just dropping by to say HI :)

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Eh. Feel free to be pessimistic if you want, but your own statements turn back on themselves a little bit. To be precise, since "no one in Japan plays her" we have, essentially ZERO accurate data about what happened in the loctest. Do you really expect some random guy who is screwing around with the game to be able to even tell you if most of the changes you want in that list happened? I sure don't. Hell, I wouldn't even be able to tell you most of that stuff if _I_ had a chance to screw around with the loctest, because, well, I wouldn't be using her crap specials, so I wouldn't be able to tell if they were improved. I wouldn't be randomly throwing out D button attacks so I wouldn't be able to tell if they still left her at disadvantage on block, etc.

I don't think that, fundamentally, she's all that difficult to balance. Theoryfighting gets you 75% of the way there. Does that mean they'll do it? no, of course not, but acting all upset about this incomplete by your own definition list of changes that may or may not even be final just doesn't seem a good use of pessimism. ;)

That said, why all the hope for Platinum? Just because Valk came out strong? I expect Plat to suck for that very reason. ;)

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The new characters no doubt had some major balance issues, at least in regards to damage. Platinum seems to be more in line with what they want out of CS2 as so far, she hasn't received any changes as far as I am aware.

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Yea, as far as I know there was no patching of Platinum but to be fair no one would really be able to know what was patched and what wasn't with her haha.

Hell, as long as she somehow doesn't get any worse in the scale of things, I'll be happy.

As long as she's still fun to use, it's all a wash in the end.

This. I'm still gonna main Tsubaki even if it kills me which it probably will... and I'm okay with that.

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