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[CS1] Tsubaki Yayoi - General Discussion 2.0

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They should dash more. People shouldn't be missing this too much, the timing isn't super-tight or anything.

From a max range 5b, 3c is the way to go anyway. lt still connects so...

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They should dash more.

From a max range 5b, 3c is the way to go anyway. lt still connects so...

Wut

...

...

My god, I feel really stupid for never noticing that combo'd. Still, reacting solely off 5B is probably still out of my reach. I normally hit with 2A at least twice in Melty before I know whether or not my opponent is blocking or not.

Personal flaw? Yeah. Still, I feel like your reactions would have to be really good.

EDIT: I can't get 5B>3C to combo normally in practice (only works on CH). Is the gatling chart wrong, or do I suck at life?

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Yea, as far as I know there was no patching of Platinum but to be fair no one would really be able to know what was patched and what wasn't with her haha.

This. I mean, she functionally doesn't exist. People can't notice changes in something they don't understand in the first place. The lack of "changes" to her isn't a lack of changes, it's a lack of people's ability to tell what is going on with her. I don't think people even have a thorough understanding of the most basic basics of her gameplay yet, nevermind "subtle" changes like the ones that are going on in these tests.

Anyway, yeah. Sticking with Tsubaki. Loyalty and stuff. Plus, I can't get over Platinum's design anyway. @_@

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Wut

...

...

My god, I feel really stupid for never noticing that combo'd. Still, reacting solely off 5B is probably still out of my reach. I normally hit with 2A at least twice in Melty before I know whether or not my opponent is blocking or not.

Personal flaw? Yeah. Still, I feel like your reactions would have to be really good.

EDIT: I can't get 5B>3C to combo normally in practice (only works on CH). Is the gatling chart wrong, or do I suck at life?

5B>3C only combos on CH or crouching opponents assuming you're not at max range 5B.

I personally don't use 5BB other than to frame trap scrubs. I find myself doing 5B>2B/6A almost all the time up close.

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Sorry to spoil the party guys, but I believe tsubaki will still be trash.

Arc doesn't seem to understand why she is sucky sucky right now. I guess since cause no one in japan plays her anymore it's hard to get input on what to do to make her better.

The current loketest changes just show me that they don't know what to do with her.

They tried to create a ragna like character, but in the end they oversimplified her so much that she ended up being complete gutter trash.

Arc doesn't seem to understand:

1. She needs better normals. Those hitboxes need to be increased.

2. More gatlings. It's almost impossible to hitconfirm with her.

3. Actually make her solid. If they want to make her gimmicky, fine, but she has so little gimmicks and you end up using the same redundant gimmicks over and over. Any decent opponent won't fall for the same thing twice.

4. 22D doesn't work anymore.

5. Make mashing against her not so ridiculously effective.

6. Why does she have so much trash that never gets used: 236 B/C, 214 B/C, j.236 B/C, j.214 A/B. Take all that trash out and replace it with....I don't know, maybe useful moves. Even her 236A, 214A, j.236A, j.214C are just combo filler, and are completely useless out of it. Why is that?

7. Why aren't ALL her D moves, except her D dp, safe on block? So I'm wasting a charge to put me at a disadvantage on block? Sounds like a nice idea arc.

8. Actually give her a useful FC.

9. Make Mugen worthwhile and simply not for trolling. Funny thing is, you would have gotten more damage if you had used your charge and meter separately, than if you enter into mugen during a combo.

10. Why can't she charge cancel all her normals?

11. What makes her unique from the other rush down characters besides "I need to destroy my oki to get something that makes me average the same damage that they do"?. Over-used gimmicks?. Even with the loke changes THERE IS STILL ABSOLUTELY NO REASON TO USE HER INSTEAD OF BANG/JIN/RAGNA.

Those are just a few of the problems I still saw with her even after all they so called "tsubaki buffs" and nerfs came pouring in. I personally think she'll still be trash in CS2. She needs a total revamp, like Nu - Lambda overhaul, and that most likely won't come till BB3, if it even comes at all. I don't know what could happen to her in the final build, but if the changes are any indication of what arc thinks is the way to fix her, then it's obvious that they have no idea as to why she sucks.

Once plat hits I'm done with tsu. I'll tie her up with a rock and toss her down the nearest lake. I like a character that gives me options and tools to work with. Hell, rachel might not deal enough damage, but she actually has stuff to work with. Tsubaki on the other hand is just......It's hard for me to let go. My eyes are pouring as I'm typing this, but I just can't keep HOPING that my gimmicks work anymore. I need stability and consistency in a long term relationship. One based on SOLID foundations, lol. I wanna use a real character....I don't wanna troll any longer.

Plat is shaping up to be both a troll, and possibly a good character. So I get the best of both worlds <3. Even if plat ends up being low tier, I don't care. I just want a character that gives me options to work with.

Just dropping by to say HI :)

Thanks for making this post by the way. This pretty much summarizes all my thoughts on Tsubaki as a character today, and how I feel about her regarding CS2.

Though I feel Mugen is good for damage in very specific cases, but it's so easy to just burst out of. Also anyone who knows what the combos look like can just burst at the parts where you can't block/bait it out. Even if you try to bait out the burst by not doing anything, you wasted charge + 50 meter haha.

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As a correction for Soujiro, Mugen is definitely her best damage option for realistic amounts of charge. Trolling is just a great secondary purpose.

I'd also much rather do CH 5b>6c instead of ch 5b>3c personally. I'd like a bit more hitstun on her normals for sure though.

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That said, why all the hope for Platinum? Just because Valk came out strong? I expect Plat to suck for that very reason. ;)

Both Makoto and Valk are fairly strong B or B+ characters so it stands to reason that Plat will probably be fairly well balanced.

As far as changes I have no comment until final version for obvious reasons. Seta had a good list of what was wrong with her outside of the Mugen thing and is correct in saying that, while a lot of fun, there is really no reason to use her over ragna/jin/bang. Being worse in every department is simply depressing for the most part.

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I have no hope of Tsubaki being good in CS2. All of the reasons mentioned are essentially why. If her hitboxes or.gatlings were better people at the loketests would have noticed. All the list says to me is that Arc has no fuckig clue what to do with her and instead of being smart and improving more normals and her basic gameplay they are just making random changes in hopes of hitting gold. That list does not look like gold to me. That list looks like Shit. I still say 5D giving instant part of bar and recovering faster than 2D, and more (maybe not ALL) normals being cc-able would at least give her safer pressure that scared the opponent; block too long and Tsubaki is sitting on a bunch of meter. Fheywwill never implement this change.

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Sometimes I almost wonder whether they were TRYING to make a shitty character.... Like, someone that is easy to learn/mash for new players but is not really viable in expert play. I don't know WHY the hell they'd do that, but sometimes it seems like the only explanation. I could understand making a character whose range is worse than others like her, or whose damage is worse than others like her... But why the hell would you do both? It's looking like the changes (both to her and the game as a whole) will make her slightly better, but not by much. Then again, a miracle might happen....

But I'll still stick with her. She's just too much darn fun, and you get to be extra smug when you do win with her. I'll just have to sub Lambda or Valk to keep myself from becoming suicidal......

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Thanks for making this post by the way. This pretty much summarizes all my thoughts on Tsubaki as a character today, and how I feel about her regarding CS2.

So you're gonna drop Tsubaki too Gin?

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I don't know why anyone who used her actively in CS1 would drop her in CS2 due to these potential changes/non-changes.

It's not like they were tier whoring with her to win. People dropping Litchi or Bang(although I hear from good Bang players he'll still be very, very good) I could see.

I'm set for for mains with Tsubaki, Valk and Tager for the foreseeable future I think. I encourage a healthy number of subs to keep things fresh and interesting though.

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I don't know why anyone who used her actively in CS1 would drop her in CS2 due to these potential changes/non-changes.

It's not like they were tier whoring with her to win. People dropping Litchi or Bang(although I hear from good Bang players he'll still be very, very good) I could see.

I'm set for for mains with Tsubaki, Valk and Tager for the foreseeable future I think. I encourage a healthy number of subs to keep things fresh and interesting though.

I imagine some were hoping for real improvements to make her not be ass. Arc did not deliver, so they are done hoping.

Bang still has massive damage and whatnot in the corner, good mixup and pressure, etc.

I love Tsubaki and will fail with her until the bitter end. Fail.

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Random question.

Are Tsubaki's air blockstrings worth crap?

I'll make some when their JC-able 2C rolls around.

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Hard to hitconfirm with tsu?

lol

Are you loling cause it's true or cause you believe otherwise?

They should dash more. People shouldn't be missing this too much, the timing isn't super-tight or anything.

From a max range 5b, 3c is the way to go anyway. lt still connects so...

You shouldn't be missing 5BB too much 0_o? You don't always have control over that. Her normals do whiff at the most random times. People can easily poke you during your slight dashes as well, so dashing more often isn't always the way to go. Sometimes simply poking with 5B 5B slight dash 5B..... is actually safer than trying to slight dash and get within 5BB range.

The fact that at close range 5BB can still whiff in an of it self is stupid imo.

5B 3C doesn't combo at max range. You can get DPed, tager can 360/720 you, bang can 2D, etc. I'm not saying you do it all the time but 5B 3C at max range is too predictable to rely on too much, and if your opponent is smart and decides to take a risk, aka mash at the right time against tsubaki, cause he sees you're at max 5B range and and realizes that you might try 5B 3C again, then you are screwed.

Like I said "Simply poking with 5B 5B slight dash 5B..... " ,especially at max range, is safer than like all her other options cause iirc 5B is + on block, so if they're mashing you'll counter hit, and if you have a charge and quick hands to react you can 22D afterwards.

Thanks for making this post by the way. This pretty much summarizes all my thoughts on Tsubaki as a character today, and how I feel about her regarding CS2.

No prob :keke:. You seem like a really nice guy and because you're the mod of the forum I felt like you didn't want to say things that could outright crush peoples dreams about her in CS2 so you took the "I'll let them realize that she'll most likely still suck in CS2 by themselves" approach, lol and I don't blame you. I doubted you in the beginning when you said "I'll let you guys see for yourself". I knew she sucked just by watching, but I didn't want to believe you. Lol, well here I am now as a strong believer.

Though I feel Mugen is good for damage in very specific cases, but it's so easy to just burst out of. Also anyone who knows what the combos look like can just burst at the parts where you can't block/bait it out. Even if you try to bait out the burst by not doing anything, you wasted charge + 50 meter haha.

As a correction for Soujiro, Mugen is definitely her best damage option for realistic amounts of charge. Trolling is just a great secondary purpose.

Lol Yeah I just realized that I do mugen combos all the time because that's where her damage is at. Sorry about the misinformation. Haha, I was caught in the heat of the moment of putting arc on blast after realizing that I might have to leave my waifu for another waifu, and I didn't take my time to think about what I just said.

I have no hope of Tsubaki being good in CS2. All of the reasons mentioned are essentially why. If her hitboxes or.gatlings were better people at the loketests would have noticed. All the list says to me is that Arc has no fuckig clue what to do with her and instead of being smart and improving more normals and her basic gameplay they are just making random changes in hopes of hitting gold. That list does not look like gold to me. That list looks like Shit. I still say 5D giving instant part of bar and recovering faster than 2D, and more (maybe not ALL) normals being cc-able would at least give her safer pressure that scared the opponent; block too long and Tsubaki is sitting on a bunch of meter. Fheywwill never implement this change.

OMG, you said exactly what crossed my mind when I first saw her changes. They seemed so random to me. I was like, "these changes don't address her real problems. Does arc know what they're doing with her at all or is this just purely random". It's like they just made random changes in the hopes of hitting a sweet spot/gold with her. They were like "maybe this would improve her. We don't really know what her problems are but lets just give this a try". The fact that the hitbox on her normals haven't changed, which is something a Day 1 tsubaki would have complained about, shows me that they really don't have a clue.

Giving her more gatlings and making all her normals CCable would add to the unpredictability factor. Now you can't just mash out when you see her toss out a CCable normal cause all her normals would be CCable, meaning she can CC at any time. More gatlings would add a lot of randomness to her game as well. Your opponent wouldn't know when you're going to CC or what gatlings your going to do cause your gatlings wouldn't have a pattern to them. By also increasing the hitbox of her normals, you wouldn't magically whiff during your gatlings so you don't have to worry about having to CC your normals to slight dash too much or slight dashing too much during your pressure in general. These simple changes, (bigger hitbox on normal, all normals are CCable, more gatlings), will reduce your opponents ability to mash when they think you'll slight dash/CC.

That would have gotten one problem fixed, but the fact that not even one of these was implemented just shows that arc has no clue.

Sometimes I almost wonder whether they were TRYING to make a shitty character.... Like, someone that is easy to learn/mash for new players but is not really viable in expert play. I don't know WHY the hell they'd do that, but sometimes it seems like the only explanation. I could understand making a character whose range is worse than others like her, or whose damage is worse than others like her... But why the hell would you do both? It's looking like the changes (both to her and the game as a whole) will make her slightly better, but not by much. Then again, a miracle might happen....

But I'll still stick with her. She's just too much darn fun, and you get to be extra smug when you do win with her. I'll just have to sub Lambda or Valk to keep myself from becoming suicidal......

lol, I thought the same thing as well. They wanted to create another Ragna. Not too hard to pick up and play type character. Something tells me they wanted a simpler version of ragna, lol like ragna isn't simple enough, hence why 85% of her stuff is simply filler. The problem is that she was too rushed. I have a hard time believing they put thought into her. She really shouldn't have that much filler for moves, and even her moves used in combos are just combo filler. Imo, she was a rushed last minute creation by arc just so they could say "Well we have one more extra character on the screen". This is why she has different versions of the same move, even though you end up using only 1. Arc didn't take the time to think up creative/good moves.

I imagine some were hoping for real improvements to make her not be ass. Arc did not deliver, so they are done hoping.

Bang still has massive damage and whatnot in the corner, good mixup and pressure, etc.

I love Tsubaki and will fail with her until the bitter end. Fail.

Correct, for me atleast. I like taking characters that I play seriously. I don't mind trolling on the side, but i take them seriously nontheless. I stayed with her in the hopes that they would gradually fix her over time. I don't expect arc to magically just revamp her in CS2, no, but I thought that they would have made hitxbox changes, given her more gatlings/CCable normals. Those were the most obvious changes that I expected atleast. I didn't say anything about her changes until after the 4th loctest. I just wanted to see what direction they were taking with her. Well the tests are done, and for the fact that an obvious fix like hitbox changes weren't made clearly shows they don't know what to do, and I'm not gonna stick around to find out what they plan to do and hope that they get it right in another installment. I want to take her seriously, but it's impossible when she has these many problems and loses to such scrubtacular tactics like mashing.

I planned on maining her in the beginning, but quickly dropped her to sub status when I realized just how bad she was. I pity guys like Ginseng who actually want a tourney viable character. I've gone from "just wanting to have fun/troll" to "okay why does this character lose to so much scrubby $#!t". Atleast I have carl to fall back on so she's just there for me to use when I want to change things up. I really wanted to main her, but after these tests I forsee none of her problems being fixed in CS2, and she's not even worth my time as a sub anymore cause plat will get all the attention as my second main. Nothing wrong in using low tier. Tsu just has nothing, and your opponent can do what ever they want cause she's terrible. I mained Fuerte in SF4 who was only higher than Vega and Dan iirc but atleast he had tools. Elf died in like 2 combos and SF4 had so much bull (trade into ultra, OP braindead ryu/sagat, etc) so it's not even about tiers with me. With the way I beat people on xbl with tsubaki you'd think she is actually viable, but once I run into the right people, the rage of "Why is she so terribad" kicks in, and I just can't take it anymore.

I hoped that just a few "good" changes would be made during the loctest, but alas nothing was done. I want people to actually think when they face tsubaki, and not laugh at how you're averaging 1.8k and mash during her gimmicky pressure into braindead 3.2k :/, assuming your normals don't whiff and get you punished anyway. A miracle could happen in the final version, but I highly doubt it.

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I agree with everything you have said soujiro because it's so very true. But while I know that it's more likely that she'll still suck even after this patch, there's this part of me that kind of hopes that at least she won't be worse OTL

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Well, Everyone except Rachel is getting the nerfstick for BBCS2, so just the fact that Tsubaki isn't going DOWN means she goes up by comparison. Though I admit, I'm confused and annoyed by the 22D changes.

Regarding her being rushed, it's POSSIBLE, but I don't think saying that "she has different versions of the same move" is in any way proof, because even if you ignore the differences between her move versions entirely, she has basically the same number of moves as most of the cast. (Assuming that you -also- discount the different button versions of everyone else's moves. Fair is fair. Rachel doesn't have 3 Ttiny Lobelias, she has 1, etc). I do think there was a certain lack of planning involved however. Even theoryfighting should indicate that if a character has to sacrifice to fill a gauge, then using that gauge should give GREATER (not the same) rewards than other characters that DON'T have to sacrifice to use their Drive. This is not rocket science.

I'm still sticking to the assertion that we actually known jack damn nothing about the changes that were made, because I don't think they were tested by people would would recognize them. Heck, some of the "information" we do have it outright self contradictory. It's hard to believe that Arc is, in fact, THAT clueless.

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Neither she, nor really most characters, have any form of air blockstrings. If someone is jumping, all you should be doing is AA, airthrow, j.A non-stop like it's GG, etc. If they're on the ground, the same thing happens to you. Most kinds of air pressure are really just IAD cross attacks like Jin's j.236D, Hazama's IAD j.2C, etc., or some gimmicky shit that you can AA easily if you can react like how Jins always abuse jump cancel>j.A>j.B. Jumping during pressure isn't really the best idea unless you've conditioned the opponent to block, which is pretty much impossible with Tsubaki,

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Playing Tsubaki is the same as being in an abusive relationship. What is wrong with those of us sticking around. What terrible problems must we have.

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I don't really care about the tier thing. The only reason why I use tsubaki is because she is female and rarely used (my own personal weird preference). Tiers can go to hell as I am not a tier-hopper unlike those new Bang or Litchi players. :P

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Playing Tsubaki is the same as being in an abusive relationship. What is wrong with those of us sticking around. What terrible problems must we have.

So true and for some reason I still can't get into the rest of the cast, anytime I try to play around with anyone else I fell like I'm cheating or something. So I'm stuck taking beatings and longing for better days.

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When I first picked her up, I too got the sense she was rushed, mostly because of her drive. It's not very creative... you just use it to make her moves sort-of-as-good as the rest of the cast's. I hope one day they change it so that the charge versions of her moves have some kind of special or interesting property besides "average damage" (plus the misc. gimmicky bullshit they do now, but I don't count that cuz a) most of that isn't very good at b) uhm, I'd like her regular moves to do average damage?). Maybe slow your opponent's moves for a brief period of time? Because they can't see? Isn't her weapon supposed to have some sort of light-stealing power? I can only pay attention to story mode for so long before my brain starts to try to kill itself...

She almost seems to have MORE different types of specials than the majority of the cast, except, you know, they're bad. I wanted her to be a character where in order to keep your pressure going, you have to be able to rapidly choose which version of her moves to use, like her 214x's depending on how far away they are, or have different angles on her j.214's... The problem is, all of her moves suck in some way. Most are too slow on startup, the DP has no invulnerability, etc. If they fixed it so her specials weren't so ridiculously awful that'd be a nice improvement.

It's hard to believe that Arc is, in fact, THAT clueless.

Hahahaha, from what I hear about how long it took to balance GG, I might have to disagree with you on that. Although I do agree that we don't REALLY know all the changes they made to Tsubaki, because so few people actually play her. Still, ain't looking good. Ah well, at least they're fixing Rachel....

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