Going Back to Guilty Gear

[notsogos]

stfu weeaboo that sounded LAAAAME

[Wirya]

I don't find that to be LAAAAME, qwerty.

Just because every characters in AC has easy ways to do big damage and win, doesn't mean the game is shallower than previous installments. It's like saying that a lake is not deep enough because there isn't any piranha or shark in it.

[CakeWasBannedd]

It's like saying that a lake is not deep enough because there isn't any piranha or shark in it.

Best.

[Hellmonkey]

People are actually saying GGAC has less depth than the previous versions? wtf...

Just for system changes alone: burst is sped up so it can be used in more situations, easy FD OS throw was removed so people actually have to think more when they throw, air throw range was lowered to make people think more when they airthrow, GB+ was removed off of projectiles so using your normals more wisely in pressure is rewarded.

Just about every character got new options with force breaks that added even more depth to meter management (not that it really needed more, since it's so useful on offense and defense already).

I don't see how higher damage and better mixup options would make GG any less deep. It just makes knowing your matchups and spacing that much more important, and punishes you for making mistakes. Depth in a fighting game is all about having many options in various situations that are viable, so the player is constantly making choices and gameplay is not linear. A good sign of depth is a varied cast and different styles of play that are viable for the same character. That is as apparent as ever in GGAC imo.

[Hecatom]

thats the same think that i think, but i would really like to read why 4r5 thinks that it lost some of its depth compared to previous versions

[shtkn]

Yeah, I pretty much agree. The reason the game seems balanced is because every character not named Ky has a magical lulz haymaker that essentially ends the round or renders it very difficult to come back. Many of the characters don't even require any tension to land said magical lulz haymaker. Your chances of landing your character's magical lulz haymaker is relatively high in any given matchup, so the matchups tend to be very close.

It also makes the game very unforgiving of mistakes or getting hit even once. Out of all the tourney viable games, only MvC2 and A3 are more unforgiving, but at least you need meter to be BS in A3. That makes it kinda stale after a while since you start to get sick of watching yourself lose rounds randomly out of the blue off of something completely silly or off of one miss.

mirrors my thoughts pretty well. AC is a great game (probably one of the greatest fighters of all time) and i love AC Ky, but the fact taht 1 mistake = death makes the game frustrating and dare i say it... sometimes not fun.

whatever happened to the saying: small punish for small mistakes, big punish for big mistakes? In AC it's big punish for any mistake.

[ehuangsan]

People are actually saying GGAC has less depth than the previous versions? wtf...

Just for system changes alone: burst is sped up so it can be used in more situations, easy FD OS throw was removed so people actually have to think more when they throw, air throw range was lowered to make people think more when they airthrow, GB+ was removed off of projectiles so using your normals more wisely in pressure is rewarded.

Just about every character got new options with force breaks that added even more depth to meter management (not that it really needed more, since it's so useful on offense and defense already).

I don't see how higher damage and better mixup options would make GG any less deep. It just makes knowing your matchups and spacing that much more important, and punishes you for making mistakes. Depth in a fighting game is all about having many options in various situations that are viable, so the player is constantly making choices and gameplay is not linear. A good sign of depth is a varied cast and different styles of play that are viable for the same character. That is as apparent as ever in GGAC imo.

I think you are confusing tactical depth versus strategical depth. From a tactical depth point of view, I agree with you. I cannot think of any other fighting game that offers more options or creates so much tactical variation, and that's part of the reason why I still like the game a lot.

However, from a strategical point of view, I think GGAC has essentially boiled down to:

1) Land magical lulz haymaker.

2) Win the round off the oki.

for almost every character in the game. I also think this is brought about because of both the higher damage + better mixups.

Even if you don't win the round off the oki due to your opponent guessing right or whatever, the magical lulz haymaker puts the other person immediately into a 1-9 or 2-8 situation, so comebacks in a round tend to be almost unheard of. Kinda like in MvC2 where you eat a snapback into an infinite on your hanging assist and then get your next character guardbroken into infinite off of something completely innocent. Can you come back and win from such a situation? Sure, but it's unlikely enough that it's essentially fatal. Although GGAC doesn't quite have the cliff-like slippery slope of MvC2, it is pretty darn unforgiving.

Compare that to say, #R. While #R had its bad problems and a few characters are like what I said, magical lulz haymakers weren't the strategic basis for the vast majority of the characters in the game, unlike AC. Giving almost everyone a magical lulz haymaker with better mixup options reduced the strategical depth and variety that the previous versions had, IMO.

[Digital Watches]

Due to the way damage scaling works, the only characters with "magical lulz haymakers" in the sense you describe are really Slayer and May, and the versions of their combos that do the kind of damage you can't come back from have to be set up anyway. The fact that you can get a lot of damage in some situations doesn't mean every character is a magical abare-machine where their jab leads to a TOD. In addition, what most americans don't realize about why they're taking so much damage is because their half-assed attempts at blocking actually work against them, due to guardbar scaling. Pro tip: If you normal block three attacks then get hit by an obvious overhead into a big combo, your lifebar's going to be gone. If you successfully defend then get a few seconds breathing room, your guardbar goes back to normal, and most characters can't kill you with two combos. Sure, AC upped the damage barometer a little, but to say that "any mistake" leads to an unwinnable situation is well into the realm of delusional.

tl;dr: For the most part, big damage combos like the ones you describe either need specific setups or some guardbar assist.

[ehuangsan]

Given the way AC plays out, you don't need Slayer/May like damage to reduce the strategy to what I have mentioned. 40% off an abare is sufficient, which is certainly achievable by most of the cast. Although AC is roughly a 3 combo game, with the oki + advantages gained, you have a very good chance of winning right after landing the first haymaker or sending them into a less than 10% life situation. With Slayer/May and some others you simply kill them instead of sending them into <10% life situations, but for the rest it's essentially a 1-9/2-8 situation.

A lot of the characters after landing their haymakers gain tension, knock down AND send the opponent into the corner, which I think is quite absurd, especially given how incredibly awful it is to be in the corner in AC. Plus on oki, some characters can force you to completely guess, others have great tactical options or great positional advantages that could potentially cause you to die right there or go into that 10% life situation with even more aggregated advantage. It's not a TOD, but pretty darn dire off of one mistake, big or small. I think the best analogy is like fighting Yun in 3S, but where Yun can do 25-30% damage + knockdown and meter gain without needing to use meter. "I lost 30% life and NOW he's going to Genei Jin me on my wakeup and possibly win right there. FML."

So while it's not MvC2 or A3 level slippery slope, which are like 1 to 1.5 hit games, I think AC is like a 1.5-2 hit game, which is on par with puzzle fighter or maybe slightly worse than fighting against Yun in 3S. Most of the other competitive 2D fighting games are 2.5-3 hit games, which is a lot more forgiving than AC.

tl;dr: Getting hit once in this game will put you into a situation where you may possibly lose instantly without any recourse.

[milesokeefe]

I suggest SSF4 to those looking for a low risk, low reward environment.

Such people might also want to try IaMP. On a computer that's barely able to run it.

[Jakestation]

staying in corner aint that bad in AC, as long as you are ok with blocking. about 90% of the players i´ve played are afraid of blocking. once i get them corner, they start to decorate it with their guts.

use FD a lot, pushes opponent farther -> jump out.

staying in corner in HnK "hokuto no ken" aka fist of the northstar. thats bad place to be. even more unforgiving than mahvel, except in this game you can actually play with every character instead of toptiers only.

[ElvenShadow]

Ive gotta disagree with ehuangsan. I think the very fact that the game has such high damage out put is the exact reason why you CAN make huge comebacks in that game. Ive done it and seen it plenty of times. Honestly I dont see how GG isnt a deep game. I also dont understand the AC hate. I LOVED Slash but AC is still a great game, and the forcebreaks and slashbacks add a lot to it. The fact that even the lowest of tier characters often place high in tournaments says a lot about the balance.

Also, you make it sound like every time someone gets hit they are going to eat a giant combo which is not the case. There is plenty of damage from pokes and projectiles and whatnot that dont lead into big damage. Ive seen (high level) matches where almost zero huge combos even happened because of the way the match played out. Just sayin...

[smooshman]

tl;dr: Getting hit once in this game will put you into a situation where you may possibly lose instantly without any recourse.

I disagree, even Ky can turn a match, whether it's just J214D to stall or getting a combo>knockdown, he gains advantage and you are going to have to block based on his tension.... unless it's pot.

the only characters you're screwed if you lose life lead are pot and eddie, and pot is only ridiculous for half the cast (all non ranged characters), the other half rape him lol. Hell even Johnny can make comebacks, just one enkasu or corner and things he stands a chance. Damage isn't everything, and most of the characters who can do the 80% damage have very little other tools.

[Digital Watches]

Also, the oki is nowhere near as ridiculous as you make it sound. Yeah, it's a man's game, and you can't defend perfectly forever, but to say you just "Have to guess" against most characters is complete bullshit. There is definitely one character against whom that's true, and there might be as many as three or four.

And while we're at it, if 40% on abare is your figure, that means approximately 3-4 combos 'til death, when you consider guts scaling, even for characters with 1 guts rating.

[CakeWasBannedd]

There is definitely one character against whom that's true, and there might be as many as three or four.

Millia?

[Digital Watches]

You win a gold star.

And actually, I'mna retract my "Maybe 3 or 4" It's 3, tops, and that's really generous.

[Hecatom]

im starting to think that usa plays a different version of ac compared to japan or other countries

[qwerty]

we are

[Id_asz]

Best Fighters by sub-genre:

Airdashers (aka New School): Guilty Gear XX Λ Core

Old School: Street Fighter III: Third Strike

3D plane: Virtua Fighter 5 (R or Final Shodown) [haven't had much of a chance to play the updates since they're only in arcade]

There's some good second placers, but these 3 are the best of each of the three types of mainstream fighters imo.

You can't just give up GG because BB is out! You gotta play both!

[notsogos]

IF YOU CAN'T BLOCK YOU SHOULDN'T BE PUNISHED

wat da fuk

there are sooooo many amazing defensive options in this game.

YES IF YOU CAN'T BLOCK YOU SHOULD LOSE THE GAME GO PLAY SSF4

[Hellmonkey]

Given the way AC plays out, you don't need Slayer/May like damage to reduce the strategy to what I have mentioned. 40% off an abare is sufficient, which is certainly achievable by most of the cast. Although AC is roughly a 3 combo game, with the oki + advantages gained, you have a very good chance of winning right after landing the first haymaker or sending them into a less than 10% life situation. With Slayer/May and some others you simply kill them instead of sending them into <10% life situations, but for the rest it's essentially a 1-9/2-8 situation.

A lot of the characters after landing their haymakers gain tension, knock down AND send the opponent into the corner, which I think is quite absurd, especially given how incredibly awful it is to be in the corner in AC. Plus on oki, some characters can force you to completely guess, others have great tactical options or great positional advantages that could potentially cause you to die right there or go into that 10% life situation with even more aggregated advantage. It's not a TOD, but pretty darn dire off of one mistake, big or small. I think the best analogy is like fighting Yun in 3S, but where Yun can do 25-30% damage + knockdown and meter gain without needing to use meter. "I lost 30% life and NOW he's going to Genei Jin me on my wakeup and possibly win right there. FML."

So while it's not MvC2 or A3 level slippery slope, which are like 1 to 1.5 hit games, I think AC is like a 1.5-2 hit game, which is on par with puzzle fighter or maybe slightly worse than fighting against Yun in 3S. Most of the other competitive 2D fighting games are 2.5-3 hit games, which is a lot more forgiving than AC.

tl;dr: Getting hit once in this game will put you into a situation where you may possibly lose instantly without any recourse.

I don't want to sound like a jerk, but I'm pretty sure you just don't have any decent sort of grasp on defense in GG, from either neutral or being knocked down. I can understand how playing without that knowledge can make the game look less deep because people are mashing shit out for big reward like you have mentioned multiple times, but that's really not the way the game is played out at higher level. The game is not over in the slightest when you get hit by a 40% combo and are knocked down in the corner, the fact that you even suggest that shows the lack of understanding of defense in GG. It's extremely hard to deal that huge damage against a player that understands any matchup, INCLUDING against slayer, eddie, etc. because you learn to avoid the situations that put you in great risk.

Learning which situations you should be attacking or defending is one of the most important steps in becoming strong in this game. With better knowledge of matchups and spacing, as well as learning how to block, I'm sure your view will change.

[AKA]

lol logic owned

[Wirya]

Man, how I love this thread. One or two threads like this once in a while make this forum much more alive....

[Honnou]

I can't think at 8:30 in the morning but...

X - surprisingly better than XX lol...

XX - :|

XX#R - awesome game with dumb system/balance

XX/ - arguably good balance, bad input reader, boring ass game

AC - so slayer got an "ex uppercut" boo fucking hoo, people who have more patience and knowledge are rewarded IMHO, also slash back and throw break are amazing options for the entire cast and let you punish so many auto-pilot players.

I know there isn't any point in comparisons but I think some people need to be reminded how bad / is (except for combo vids!). This game (AC) has been out for, what, 3 years now? Deal.

[Sesshyru]

Awwwww snap. Better hop that 4r5 doesn't see you trashin slash.