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MouseWonder

Going Back to Guilty Gear

Ever have a reunion with GG?  

141 members have voted

  1. 1. Ever have a reunion with GG?

    • YEAH!! Everyday since I never left! The fact that you quit playing is an insult and disgrace!!
    • I can commiserate with you
    • I could care less.. I can't believe I wasted my time reading your post..
    • Not really, I have moved on to BB
    • GG what is that shit? I just was curious what all these forums were below BB


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Something similar has happened in my area. A lot of people do seem to think it's not an easy game.

I try convincing them it's not nearly as complicated as it looks, but alas.

Lol, it's funny isn't it. People are complaining BB is too easy, and then you have casuals complaining that it's too hard. What surprised me was that they didn't even want to keep playing to see how things turned out. Their initial impression was "Too hard, I'm not going to devote time to it". I was so surprised that they did that. You would think they would realize that with time things would become clearer, but no. Nowadays casuals are like if I can't understand/get into it quickly, like SF4, then I don't want to play. Lol, that confirmed to me that the days of GG are dead.

Some say mori is a scrub/doesn't know how to make fighters, lol, but this explains why he's going in this direction with BB. Don't be fooled, mori could easily add mechanics/changes to BB that would up the difficulty, but those CEOs won't allow it. BBCT was faster than CS. At first I was like "why did they do this?". I wouldn't be surprised if casuals said the game was too fast, so they slowed it down.

Arc created BB as a marketable GG so to speak. They still wanted a bit of that GG feel, but more suited towards marketability.

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>Implying i am not right now.

My apologies, then let that be directed to those who aren't still playing GG that complain.

Lol, it's funny isn't it. People are complaining BB is too easy, and then you have casuals complaining that it's too hard. What surprised me was that they didn't even want to keep playing to see how things turned out. Their initial impression was "Too hard, I'm not going to devote time to it". I was so surprised that they did that. You would think they would realize that with time things would become clearer, but no. Nowadays casuals are like if I can't understand/get into it quickly, like SF4, then I don't want to play.

Yeah, I know I'm biased, but I've always had the feeling that the games that get super popular are the ones that tend to give people the illusion of themselves being any good, or having an idea of what they're doing in the game.

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Hot in here.

Same thing is happening to the RTS community. So don't feel lie it's only FG's.

Yeah, C&C 3 Kane's Wrath was so beast. Then look at C&C RA3 and C&C 4 and see how much they suck : (

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i pointed this out in another thread, but many people here seem to be under the impression that arcsys gets a monthly check from arcades or something because accent core is still a popular game.

but the fact of the matter is, arcsys has already made all the money they're going to from ac. they only get money from the initial sales of the game, and gd-rom's have been out of production for almost four years now. all the console ports have made their small fortune too, so anything they see from ac at this point is perhaps sponsorship from enterbrain for every year it's at sbo, but i'm not sure if that's even the case.

and now it makes sense as to why they churn out a new bb every year, even if it's just a small update like cs2, lol.

i thought it was the other way around.... you gave money to arcadia to get your games in there.... and that was how capcom got sbx and fuc in there

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like i said, i don't know how the financial end of sbo goes down.

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i like how everyone is under the impression that the depth and technical dificulty of GG turns off the players and the casuals, seriously i have friends who play GG that cant make a FRC even if their lives depend of it, and yet they love the game over any other fighter

GG would be more succesful if only there were more publicity for it, there is no need for dumbing down the game

the other thing that sads me is that he want to make it 3d, one of the things that i love about GG and the games of ASW is that they made them 2D. making it 3d would be a really turn off for me and many other people that i know

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well thats true, but there are a lot of people like that, we tend to think that everyone wants to play the game competitively but we for get that there are people who only wants to play it to have fun

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Let me post what I think... Well I personally think ASW don't need to dumb down GG, and even if ASW dumb it down, it would still be the "weird anime fighting game." I think we will all agree that GG's uniqueness and hardcore-ness makes it awesome and it will be a trademark that no other fighting game can match. That is the reason why some of the fans got irritated when BB got popular. People are praising BB like GG never existed, but that's exactly the point: people don't even know the game existed.

I think here are the things ASW can do to sell more copies of GG without hurting it's hardcore-ness:

1. Advertisement- GG has still potential even if it is not the newest game around. Look at SF4, it was revived, GG can be revived too, even if its not as much as SF4. If BB utilized the "new fighting game from ASW" or "the spiritual successor of GG" description, GG can use BB to be popular by emphasizing that it was the game that sustained ASW, or the most hardcore FG in Japan...(even if its not necessarily true)

2. Consideration for Beginners- There are many things we can do about this:

- Attack names in training mode, basic combo lists and combo demos. Just like how it is in BB and Tekken. We have to accept that many players can't make combos but just copy them, and they even find it hard to copy other's combos.

- Flashy Overdrives and Specials that are spammable at beginner level but not very useful in high level. One of the things I observe in GG is that the damage is small in the health bar. In Tekken, super noobs enjoy using Gunjack, Panda and Paul seeing how they could kill the opponent in 3 moves. I remember playing Marvel vs Capcom when I was a kid and we would set it to Turbo mode and spam the specials of whatever. Yes flashy-ness should be added. GG is flashy, but still can be improved. Visual effects gives the illusion to players that they doing something really awesome, even if it's not.

- Or what they could do is enable a spammable mode where attacks have less lag an bigger damage or whatever. Let us face it, many gamers are spammers and they enjoy it. They care more on winning by their fast, random button mashing than learning how to play the game. Even though they are spammers, they still buy the game and therefore, customers.

-

3. An anime- the least likely to happen but if it happens, more people would buy the game.

4. And yeah, online battles... anything that could optimize a consumer's satisfaction while giving off positive externalities :P

To boil it down ASW can advertise GG in a very sellable image, in the end, it's not the advertisement that tells what a game is anyway. Real fans know better. Also, the new features that can be added to GG will add costs, but I think it's worth it if more people, casual gamers would join. Yes some players enjoy the game for complexity and variety, but we should not discriminate those who enjoy it differently...like spammers.

(I'm not a spammer!)

In terms of economics, one can say that GG is a luxury item, while other fighting games are inferior goods. GG has a small number of buyers but very loyal. We can explain that by saying that high skill and time are necessary to buy the high class GG but many cannot afford it. One of the ways the producers can do is to create more skill. BB does that. If the overall skills of players increase, even by a margin, more people can access GG.

I think BB is one of the best business decisions made by ASW(Overture can be the worst, in terms of business). And if they continue the practice, I strongly feel that the next GG can sell more that its previous titles. All they have to do is to release games alternately, never at the same time. Both games can positively affect each other since they belong to the same company. Yes GG may not be active now, but if ASW does the right methods, the buyers of BB, who are new players will buy GG.

This post was written by someone who loves GG so much even if she doesn't even have anyone to play with and can't even use RC's and FRC's. She plays BB:CS and GGAC alone in her PSP in the corner of the classroom...

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Sometimes the arguments for making games easier, or why they're doing it, can get kind of absurd. It's obvious they want to reach as many people as possible to make money. Making a game easier is part of that, but all of it? No. Aesthetic appeal is a huge huge part of this. MvC3 will be a harder game than SF4. MvC2 had the highest market penetration of any fighting game in America outside of SF4 and SF2, really. SF2 had huge market penetration (same words again I know), therefore SF4 sold on nostalgia alone. The game being "easy to play" was a bonus because scrubs don't like getting beat up.

Offense is very powerful in GG. That makes proper defense very difficult not just to execute, but to learn also (because it is highly situational). Sometimes, someone may be so overwhelmed that mentally, they cannot even get a grasp on how they lost. Did the winner do something right, or did the loser do something totally wrong? When you're in that far over your head, you have no way to learn without seeking outside assistance. The game and intuitive learning will no longer help you.

The people who rag on BB having no offense compared to GG is because the defensive options for that game were bumped up when GG players are used to eternal blockstun and a super-fast game speed where the rewards for IBing were highly situational and specific. BB has stuff that you can literally IB and interrupt with whatever you want. It's intuitive and homogenized and easier to learn and compete in compared to highly situational, specific gameplay like GG. CvS2 or 3s (option parried offense) transitioned to SF4 this same way. SF4 reads like a SF2 scrubs wish-list: Easy to tech throws (that do dick damage), easy to interrupt, easy to uppercut, easy to reversal, and super high damage Super's and Ultras. Players transitioning from HF to ST had the same problems most people have with SF4 and the trend is repeating.

Everybody got into SF4 because people know what it is in this country. It stayed popular in Japan because it brought all the Japanese casual players and scrubs back into Arcades, because they now had a chance vs. the super powered elite players. Even if they don't, in reality, stand a chance at winning. The revised system mechanics forced the elite to get EVEN BETTER at the game by using option-selected attack sequences and setups, plinking, option-select throws, delayed wakeup, etc. to get all the advantages they could. Even then, someone can still throw something stupid out and hit with it, and they eat a huge chunk of damage. Top players have to respect everybody now, and cannot lean on the "crutch" that is their own knowledge and experience in a game to win. To me, it's robbery, because they take away the humble learnings of dedicated players in order to make more money off of casual players that out-number them 100 to 1. Their time and effort has been literally devalued.

I digress, but only a little.

My final point is that nobody knows who Guilty Gear characters are. Blazblue's hardcore base is hardly even bigger than GG's was in it's heyday. SF4 meanwhile has dominated the fighting game community.

Guilty Gear will never "get big" like SF4. Nobody knows who the niggaz on the box are. Everybody knows who Wolverine is. Everybody knows Ryu. Only anime fans (out of anyone) will know Sol Badguy.

Think of the stereotype of an anime fan. In society, you can know a Marvel character and play a game with them in it and not be a loser. You can know who Ryu is, play a game with him in it, and you MIGHT be a loser. BUT if you know who Sol Badguy is and you play a game with him in it, a lot of people will shun you for it and classify you instantly. SO MANY PEOPLE are afraid of being classified that they hide the fact they play games from people. Or, they only associate with people who will elevate them within their niche's social hierarchy (SF4 baby! Mahvel baybee! Tekken fool! etc.), and won't try anything that makes them look less than cool.

If there's ever a $50,000 televised future GG tournament, I'll eat my words and WIN the damn thing because all of my hopes and dreams would be affirmed and justified by society at large, normalizing what we do forever. Then, I'd wake up...and go to my day job.

TL;DR - GG will never be any bigger than it is now (in America) because of social paradigms and if it ever IS it will be changed to do what SF4 did...and it will still fail because nobody knows what the fuck GG is.

But what do I know? I'm just an old man. Ignore me if you want to keep the dream alive.

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I would welcome a 2.5d Guilty Gear.

The number one problem with AC is actually it's too hard to make a proper sequel to. This is because from a gameplay standpoint (mechanics wise), it is nearly perfect and only in need of adjustments, and even then it is a damn fine game.

The best way to make a new Guilty Gear would be to make it NEW again. Old characters could receive revamps (condensing design, adding new tools, adding more "cool" stuff), and a complete graphical overhaul. Honestly, the personal difference from GG graphics to BB graphics isn't a huge deal. They're both quite large and barely qualify as anything but really good looking animation with slight resolution limitations. Going with 3D graphics would be the perfect way of doing this.

Anyway the general "newb" improvements are a drop in the bucket. Removal of FRCs and Slashbacks isn't a huge deal. FRCs can be "worked around" in weird ways and with character revamps done you can do stuff like making moves that were once meter intensive unsafe into Force Breaks, have "additional parts" that are Force Breaks, Buffers, etc. Slashback isn't overly used even at high level play (but is still quite useful as a predictable option limiter/risk to take). The loss of Slashback wouldn't be a huge deal IMO at anything but the highest level of play and even then... it doesn't seem like a huge loss. The rest of the game can be as unforgiving as ever really. The knockdown system, harder IB, length of hitstun/stop etc all favor better players. If they keep that stuff in while simultaenously just removing the evident features that are hard to do for an idiot (which are few, honestly). The game would be fine.

Also most of the problems with SF4 and BlazBlue have to do with things that aren't immensely obvious, such as screen size, length of hitstun, knockdown not favoring the attacker as much, speed of everything etc. There's a lot of subtle nuances that make the games slow, boring, and more defensive oriented.

Basically I think ArcSystems could do a good job... if they wanted to and are very intelligent with their approach. Basically remove any "obvious hard" from the game and keep the "subtle hard" that is very rich in Guilty Gear, beyond a few things, Guilty Gear is actually a very beginning friendly game if you can wrap your head around the amount of options, most people can do most of them, but only a few options are very hard to a novice (assuming you can do basic stick inputs)

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Thinking about it more, I'm not entirely sure that GG is actually the harder game for a player new to fighting games to get into. It's definitely harder to get good at, no question there, and yes, the skill gap between low and high level players is gigantic. However, to sit down and learn enough about BB to play on even the lowest competent level means sitting down and memorizing combos, which most new players see as a chore, at least before they get hooked. Sure, GG players have to learn combos with timing stricter than anything in BB, but BB lacks the same level of reward for grasping basic but somewhat difficult to explain (to a new player) concepts like footsies if you haven't memorized your combos yet. I can't even explain how many players new to fighting games I've shown both CS and AC, and AC is the preferred game for 19/20 newbies.

In short, GG's decline in popularity is due at least in part to people being scared of it being hard, rather that actual difficulty.

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First of all, I don't know why some people want Slashbacks to be removed, if you don't know how to do it/use it well, then don't.

Second of all, if they dumb down GG...

I'm going to go on a rampage in my town and start killing until I drop dead.

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The only real reason that I don't keep playing is the lack of an arcade or game system at the moment. If given a cab (or Stick for home) I play in a heart beat.

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I too could live with just the removal of FRC's and slashback, I wouldn't be at all happy about FRC's, and don't really care either way with slashback, but what I don't like is the road that starts down.

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.....alternatively they could ease you into the complex mechanics....

besides, it's not like a newb isn't persistent, as long as they feel they're accomplishing something then they will keep trying.

The problem isn't the difficulty, it's the fact the game really doesn't make you aware of the tools you have... in training the input reader will show you the FRC point, but it doesn't tell you that, and the fact that the blue means you missed it, and the white is the FRC, and SB just looks like a yellow FD and there's no indication as to what it does in game. even the command menu is kinda vague.

GG just assumes you know all these things.

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GG assumes you're playing in Japan. And while you're waiting for your turn, you're reading the GG mook they got chained to the machine. BB's been pretty good about not being so Japanese arcade centric. For GG, the players are going to have to pick up the slack.

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Sounds like a lack of distinction between newb and casual.

A newb is simply a new player, when I played AC, it was on controller, I didn't know shit about FRC/slashback implementation, and the only combos I knew were the obvious conventional kind, but it was damn fun, and I did get the hang of tighter combos after a while. "Newbs" will grow to get better without someone or an easy mode to hold their hand.

As far as casual gamers go, they should take a 'beginner mode' approach, but instead of taking anything out, or changing the layout, just simplify the mechanics so they aren't as tight, like a change in buffering, a grab button, etc.

Hacks in smash shows proof that different buffering systems can co-exist in real time matches, so it's not impossible.

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A small group of friends and I used to play GG on Dreamcast way back in the day (circa 2001 or 2002). After my brother got BB for PS3 a few months ago, I've gotten the GG itch again. I got it for the Wii along with a stick and have been messing around with it here and there. Such a great game. Now to get my friends playing again...

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Thinking about it more, I'm not entirely sure that GG is actually the harder game for a player new to fighting games to get into. It's definitely harder to get good at, no question there, and yes, the skill gap between low and high level players is gigantic. However, to sit down and learn enough about BB to play on even the lowest competent level means sitting down and memorizing combos, which most new players see as a chore, at least before they get hooked. Sure, GG players have to learn combos with timing stricter than anything in BB, but BB lacks the same level of reward for grasping basic but somewhat difficult to explain (to a new player) concepts like footsies if you haven't memorized your combos yet.

Zomg this. THERE'S NO BASIC GAME IN BB. You're either doing a super long dialer or doing a less long dialer off the same opening move because you haven't memorized the super long dialer bnb. So many moves seem to be in the game simply for the purpose of using them in combos rather than for actually playing the game. Most of the moves themselves have little utility outside of combos or autopilot blockstrings because of either poor hitboxes or slow speed and this lack of move definition makes the game more a matter of memorization and blindly throwing out moves based on your odds per the scenario than one of reacting to what your opponent actually does.

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QFT

but I still want less people to drop their combos less.

Fuck that. I WANT people to drop more combos. If I'm playing against someone better than me, I HOPE he drops a combo, because if I'm on my A game, I'll be able to punish that shit and possibly win. Still though..Third Strike is proof that a game can have somewhat lenient inputs and still be hardcore.

You know what GG needs? A really super in-depth story mode. If it had that, it could attract all the weeaboos and still maintain its hardcore roots. They wouldn't give a damn about slashbacks or game mechanics as long as they could play through story mode and get something from it. I like GG's story but BB's shits all over it. I'm not even that interested in getting that good at BB as I am at GG, but the story mode keeps bringing me back because it's good. Give GG a story that's worth coming back for and you'd see all these JRPG-raised twits plunk down their money in droves.

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