[CS1-CSE] Road to Ikaruga - The Bang Social thread - Do you even 3c?

[Star-Demon]

Bang is the kind of character that is only as good as the player playing him's fundamental prowess and defense.

Definitely this, I've found that I got wrecked using Bang simply because I get really rushy and spammy. That's getting better, and thus I'm better with everyone now.

[Skye]

Bang is the kind of character that is only as good as the player playing him's fundamental prowess and defense.

:/

Doesn't that count as a general skill trait of the player, meaning nothing different but rather elaborated from what I stated?

[LuminAbyss]

Good fundamentals make you able to get by with basics with any character. Knowing in-depth how your character works adds on to whatever fundamentals.

Imagine you get to wear these godlike leather pants. But without any underwear underneath, it's not gonna be comfy. You could get by, but it's not gonna be as easy. The leather pants are the character. Your undies in this case are your fundamentals, or your "fundies".

So yeah, Bang, like any character, is great when you have good fundamentals. But come on guys, let's not kid ourselves.

Fuu-rin-kaa-zan is what it's all about.

Yes this post was an excuse to use the word fundies

[Dacidbro]

No, it's different. Because Bang's reversals are SO useless against top characters, and the fastest available move to mash out is 5A, with abnormally low reward mid screen, it means if you aren't defensively powerful you're going to be bad at Bang now. This means that players like Huey who have strong defense are going to have a more prosperous future with Bang than players that don't have strong defense(myself :[)

Meanwhile, characters like Hazama, with 6-8k reward for mashing out, are much less defense-important.

[Skye]

Defense is a trait of the player, so that means good players have good defenses.

[mAc Chaos]

Defense is a trait of the player, so that means good players have good defenses.

No, if a character has ridiculous reward off random stuff then it makes the opponent a lot more scared of trying things on you, and it lets you get away with more. You can just get lucky and end up making up all the damage you took while being retarded. It also encourages the defending player to mash out since, why not? If your defense is already bad you're probably going to eat the mixup anyway, and you're going to score a hit when you're trying to poke out eventually.

[Skye]

WHaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!??

What does that have anything to do with the notion that good players have good defensive reflexes?

Never mind, I'm just going to leave.

Apparently good players have bad defense.

Oxymora in here.

[mAc Chaos]

I'm not talking about the individual players themselves, I'm talking about the incentives and risk reward those players have for their defense while playing certain characters. It will affect how you play. So even a player with good defense isn't going to have it exist in a vacuum.

Also "good defenses" doesn't just mean "good reflexes."

[Shervin]

Defense is a trait of the player, so that means good players have good defenses.

cant you say that about anything

"good players have good execution"

"good players have good footsies"

"good players have good spacing"

etc

[Skye]

It will affect how you play. So even a player with good defense isn't going to have it exist in a vacuum.

Also "good defenses" doesn't just mean "good reflexes."

Reflexes is the foundation of a good defense, you're not gonna block that random overhead without the reflexes to react to them, same for grabs and avoiding well spaced attacks.

That said, it is possible to have one's defense exist separate from character abilities, the change in defensive nature depends on the players natural tendencies to turtle and how much the said character gives them leeway to not act defensively.

cant you say that about anything

"good players have good execution"

"good players have good footsies"

"good players have good spacing"

etc

Exactly, good players are....well...good...

I'm confucked at why mac and dacid are saying that good defensive and fundamentals are not in fact traits of a good player.

[Dacidbro]

Defensive qualities are the traits of good players. However, they are not necessarily vital when your character has such astronomically skewed risk reward for reaction oriented reversals that are so blatantly overpowered as Jayakou, because your opponents are forced to tip-toe around you, which is not the case when you're playing Bang. Meaning, when you play Bang, you get the full offensive capabilities of every character, and the risk reward is steeply out of your favor even with perfect or good reads.

Does that make sense?

Keep in mind there's nothing wrong with Jayakou EXCEPT that they clearly fucked up with the combo, meaning he gets much more damage and meter gain than intended (as a result of the discovered 6D~A 4D~A j9D~A Jakou j6D~D relaunch.)

This means that 50 meter leads to 6+k damage and 50 meter back, making him a terrifying fortress of death

[Errol]

Funny part is that they added the heat reduction stuff after using a super, but jayoku has so much time tacked on to the front that he can still earn it all back.

[C0R]

It wasn't added so much as the total income window was increased, I imagine it was more of a subtle nerf to RC combos.

[huey253]

I think defense is much more about knowing your opponent's gatlings, overheads, range, than it has to do with reflexes.

My reflexes aren't the greatest, but knowing that they can only gatling into overhead after a certain point helps (ex. Makoto).

If you know the range of your opponents pokes, you can take advantage of the knowledge by baiting stuff by staying right outside of their range, or even beating them to the punch.

Other defensive choices include things like, SHOULD I BARRIER HERE? or CAN I IB Backdash here for free? Can I run under their jump in? Will ib button be a risk IN MY FAVOR?

I really don't like blocking, but when i HAVE to do it, i make sure i do my best to analyze the situation and keep all of my defensive/reversal options in mind.

EDIT: Mashing 6D is only good againist people who don't call it out (not extremely difficult to do)

6D is a really good, but shouldn't be overused

[LuminAbyss]

Funny part is that they added the heat reduction stuff after using a super, but jayoku has so much time tacked on to the front that he can still earn it all back.

I'm not going to lie, I actually never noticed this after using a super. /unobservant

[Star-Demon]

No, if a character has ridiculous reward off random stuff then it makes the opponent a lot more scared of trying things on you, and it lets you get away with more.

Hi, Noel!

[Star-Demon]

WHaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!??

What does that have anything to do with the notion that good players have good defensive reflexes?

Never mind, I'm just going to leave.

Apparently good players have bad defense.

Oxymora in here.

I'm...gonna have to go back and read this argument again...

Are we actually implying that good players get scrubbed up by Ken Flowcharts?

[LuminAbyss]

I'm...gonna have to go back and read this argument again...

Are we actually implying that good players get scrubbed up by Ken Flowcharts?

I wasn't paying attention to it, but I will say this.

Good players have good everything.

End of discussion.

Let us go back to sharing ninja skills, hating on top tiers, and praying to the statue of Dora.

[Dacidbro]

I don't actually see why this is so hard to understand.. if your character's defensive options are weak, you need to be defensively monstrous. If your character's defensive options are strong, you don't (comparatively), because they do the leg-work for you.

[LuminAbyss]

I don't actually see why this is so hard to understand.. if your character's defensive options are weak, you need to be defensively monstrous. If your character's defensive options are strong, you don't (comparatively), because they do the leg-work for you.

Yeah, when your character is stronger, you do get away with things easier, and that's why people tend to blame tiers so much. But a good player will be a good player regardless of whether the character is strong or not. They may win or lose based on the character strength at that point.

I'm not arguing against you, I agree with what you're saying, I'm just saying it doesn't change what constitutes a good player. The player may get even better defense by playing that character with weak defense as a result, or lazier by playing that strong character, but usually, a good player will still keep the qualities that made him considered a good player to begin with.

[DaiAndOh]

I have a question! What is the context of Dacid's signature?

[LuminAbyss]

I have a question! What is the context of Dacid's signature?

Always all the time young grasshopper.

[DaiAndOh]

I am god on this board, so no.

[huey253]

Yeah, when your character is stronger, you do get away with things easier, and that's why people tend to blame tiers so much. But a good player will be a good player regardless of whether the character is strong or not. They may win or lose based on the character strength at that point.

I'm not arguing against you, I agree with what you're saying, I'm just saying it doesn't change what constitutes a good player. The player may get even better defense by playing that character with weak defense as a result, or lazier by playing that strong character, but usually, a good player will still keep the qualities that made him considered a good player to begin with.

I feel alot of people didn't work on improving as much in CS1 because of OMFG bang is gdlike.

I also feel alot of people gave up rather than trying to fix their problems with characters like CS1 Rachel because she sucked. (understandable, but at america's current skill level, i feel that you could make it work if you weren't tsubaki or tager)

my point is basically that you guys should continue working hard at improving your game, even if bang is good or bad :3

[McArthur]

if i may suggest something about CS2 Bang, he has lots of situational / pick-up combos that can be longer than most people think. Aside from learning or getting better in the defense area, being able to squeeze the most damage out of various situations is very essential to have a successful Bang in CS2 (of course proper oki comes along)