Marvel vs Capcom 3

[tastylumpia]

Dante isn't that hard on pad. The advanced excution stuff is basically Jump install/Tiger Knees with a couple of quick repeated qcf/DP motions thrown in. If Wolfkrone can do SF4 C.Viper and Fanatiq can play MvC2 Magneto(!!!) on pad, there shouldn't be any problem with Dante. Zero on the other hand, isn't necessarily difficult but just completely physically awkward considering you have to switch buster charge (holding buttons down) to do his advanced BnB, which would require some weird thumb dexterity or special button mapping. But pad Eddie players, so ya.

[natearistata]

they're special cases though lol. Wolfkrone being able to play Viper on pad just completely blows my mind.

edit: I'm pretty certain Magneto is only possible on pad thanks to being able to map one-button dashing. If that wasn't there, idk.

[qwerty]

i don't see how bursts aren't a comeback mechanic. they can- and often do- turn matches around. they're obviously much harder to use than say xf, but if ultras are considered a comeback mechanic then i don't see why bursts aren't.

[eirei]

First of all, ultras (and XF) are fueled by your terrible performance, whereas bursts are simply always there. Secondly, bursts are purely a defensive option that clenches your buttocks and prevents you from getting raped, and ultras are a tiny grief-powered guillotine that protects the entry to your anal cavity.

[qwerty]

First of all, ultras (and XF) are fueled by your terrible performance, whereas bursts are simply always there.

xf is always there, it just gets stronger the less characters you have left. also, bursts are not "just there" in gg; you start with them, but you have to get hit to get your burst back (in any timely manner, at least). "being fueled by your terrible performance" is one way of thinking of it, i guess. :P

Secondly, bursts are purely a defensive option

offensive burst?

not to mention, bursts are god damn strong in gg. sometimes blue bursts will score knockdown, and even if your gold burst gets blocked, you're still invulnerable until you touch the ground. bursts are the fastest they've ever been in ac, as well.

i think people get too hung up on the notion of comeback mechanics being easy to use, to the point where that becomes the definition by conventional wisdom; which is why, i think, people also seem to have a problem with them on principle. my point here is that there's nothing wrong with throwing the guy behind a bone on principle- it's when it becomes too easy to run it back that it becomes a problem.

to help clear the air on this, i think i should try to define exactly what a comeback mechanic is, right here, right now. call me whatever you want for this, but who the hell else is gonna do it? certainly not webster.

Comeback mechanic: A universal option that favors the disadvantaged player.

now, assuming we all understand that sagat's crouch fierce is not a universal option because not everyone has access to it, we can all probably agree that this definition, barring few exceptions, is more or less correct. note that i made no mention of how much it favors the disadvantaged player; this is because xfactor is stronger for certain characters, k groove is stronger for certain characters, and bursts can be detrimental, even when used correctly.

[DogsofWar]

Comeback mechanics eh? Yeah they're completely unfair. It's not like both players have the option of X-factor or Bursts...oh wait

And if you're going to say something like "But what if i already used my X-Factor/Burst?" Well then you're an idiot in game and/or in real life.

[GenoWhirl]

so guuuuys, how viable is Tron/Dante/Amaterasu

[Nini Heart]

Not really working out for Floe so far. Tron seems weak outside of her assist(which loses to random super). Dante needs a beam assist or a low/high assist for unblockable setups/ambiguous crossups IMO.

[faultydefense]

the only kind of assists that lose to random super are random assists

x factor and burst aren't compareable at all, please don't degrade guilty gear like that...you can talk about blaz's tho

[GenoWhirl]

Not really working out for Floe so far. Tron seems weak outside of her assist(which loses to random super). Dante needs a beam assist or a low/high assist for unblockable setups/ambiguous crossups IMO.

Can't you use Ammy's coldstar to cover you?

[Nini Heart]

Can't you use Ammy's coldstar to cover you?

I guess. There's something about beams though....

[BladeOfJustice7]

the only kind of assists that lose to random super are random assists

x factor and burst aren't compareable at all, please don't degrade guilty gear like that...you can talk about blaz's tho

lol

[Spirit Juice]

so guuuuys, how viable is Tron/Dante/Amaterasu

IMO, Tron goes well with Ammy but not Dante. Ammy and Dante don't seem very compatible at all. Tron goes well with Ammy because Tron can get Ammy out of trouble with her assist, but Dante doesn't make much use out of Ammy and Tron's assists. Dante having an assist that can help him close the gap, set up mix ups, or set up combos is probably best; AFAIK, none of Tron or Ammy's assists really do that.

Besides, Dante and Ammy are best used as point characters; having them both on the same team is kinda eh...

[GenoWhirl]

IDK lol I'm just using the chars I like. Tron and Ammy synergy is cool though, thanks.

[Osuna]

Burst under some definitions might be considered a come back mechanic, however the reason people don't like XF, Rage, or ultras isn't because they are something gained from getting hit, but there are so significant that within the context of a round it is very likely that getting it First could give you an edge that often Stops the opponent from getting the same benefit. In this way the person who was losing gets an unfair advantage by virtue of losing.

If you escape a combo with a burst then get beat up enough to burst again and you use that to turn the battle around, then your opponent until he bursts twice I wouldn't say either player was advantaged. If your opponent bursts twice and you never get hit enough for a second burst, then you aren't exactly losing over it. Same with gold bursts, both players get that option. Neither is truly advantaged in that sense.

An FADC combo into ultra, or a BNB with Rage, or a level 3 XFC affects your opponent significantly, and can suddenly end matches with less work than it took to beat you up enough for that mechanic to kick in. Both players can do the same amount of work, but the one who started off the worst is often the only one who gets the advantage. Or occasionally they both get it, but whoever got it first was advantaged into a level playing field the mechanic. Getting the comeback mechanic when both players are dying is not as valuable as when you're losing.

[qwerty]

Burst under some definitions might be considered a come back mechanic, however the reason people don't like XF, Rage, or ultras isn't because they are something gained from getting hit

if you're talking about gg, burst meter gains fastest from getting hit. even if you're talking about bb, ah, or whatever, you gain a significant advantage from getting hit; you can burst and get the fuck out. i don't get what's so hard to understand about this.

but there are so significant that within the context of a round it is very likely that getting it First could give you an edge that often Stops the opponent from getting the same benefit. In this way the person who was losing gets an unfair advantage by virtue of losing.

how is this any different from bursts? "he gets to push me to the other side of the screen by virtue of getting hit"

If you escape a combo with a burst then get beat up enough to burst again and you use that to turn the battle around

also known as a comeback.

An FADC combo into ultra, or a BNB with Rage, or a level 3 XFC affects your opponent significantly

and so does landing a burst.

and can suddenly end matches with less work than it took to beat you up enough for that mechanic to kick in.

now this doesn't hold true for bursts at all, and is where the problem with things like xf comes in. like i said before, it makes it too easy to run it back, and that's when it becomes a problem.

another one of you guys said something about "not degrading gg"; but if anything, you should be proud that gg invented the most complex and sensible comeback mechanic in the history of the genre. i mean, if it makes you guys feel any better, vf5 has a comeback mechanic called throw clash.

[C0R]

Bursts can be punished, while there is no detriment to using Xfactor.

There is no advantage to be gained from being hit in BB, expending a valuable tool to obscure your mistake or mis-read does not leave you in a + position. Not getting hit is a bit better than getting hit and throwing one of your few defensive options out the window.

On the other side, Xfactor can be used while under pressure, is neigh nonpunishable on activation, and more often then not can lead to an easy OCV. As game mechanics go, in my opinion, it's definitely one of the strongest options existent in a FG.

Expending a burst at best leaves you back at neutral, maybe slightly + for a more defensive character, while Xfactor's level of gain is inarguable.

[qwerty]

Bursts can be punished, while there is no detriment to using Xfactor.

i'm glad we see eye to eye on things.

There is no advantage to be gained from being hit in BB, expending a valuable tool to obscure your mistake or mis-read does not leave you in a + position. Not getting hit is a bit better than getting hit and throwing one of your few defensive options out the window.

in this sense, yes, you are correct.

but imagine if the game didn't have bursts at all; getting hit would be that much worse, since you would never have a way out (short of the other guy dropping his combo). this is what i mean by gaining an advantage; you have a very valuable (albeit expensive) option at your disposal that you wouldn't normally have (in this case, a defensive burst).

On the other side, Xfactor can be used while under pressure, is neigh nonpunishable on activation, and more often then not can lead to an easy OCV. As game mechanics go, in my opinion, is definitely one of the strongest options existent in a FG.

no argument here, xf is ridiculous and needs to be fixed or removed.

i don't know, maybe i'm not being clear enough. if the definition i proposed doesn't make sense to you, could you please elaborate as to why?

[huey253]

if you're talking about gg, burst meter gains fastest from getting hit. even if you're talking about bb, ah, or whatever, you gain a significant advantage from getting hit; you can burst and get the fuck out. i don't get what's so hard to understand about this.

how is this any different from bursts? "he gets to push me to the other side of the screen by virtue of getting hit"

also known as a comeback.

and so does landing a burst.

now this doesn't hold true for bursts at all, and is where the problem with things like xf comes in. like i said before, it makes it too easy to run it back, and that's when it becomes a problem.

another one of you guys said something about "not degrading gg"; but if anything, you should be proud that gg invented the most complex and sensible comeback mechanic in the history of the genre. i mean, if it makes you guys feel any better, vf5 has a comeback mechanic called throw clash.

i guess this is too long to sig, ill try to pick something good

[C0R]

could you please elaborate as to why?

I seemed to have misunderstood your argument as "Bursts are as effective as Xfactor in their relative games". Doesn't seem to be the case.

[qwerty]

that's not my argument, at all.

my argument is simply that bursts are a comeback mechanic. this is on the basis of bursts being a universal option (read: everyone has one) that favors the disadvantaged player (read: the guy getting hit/blocking).

are bursts a win button? no, but most comeback mechanics aren't. i believe the ridiculousness of the games released in recent years has tarnished the reputation of an otherwise desirable mechanic that can serve to make games more interesting. if you compare ultras in sfiv to rage mode in samsho 5sp, you'll find that although the latter gives you more options (including a burst ), they are much harder to utilize correctly.

i guess it should also be noted that the definition of disadvantage varies depending on the game in question. luckily, games with comeback mechanics define it for us. in the case of marvel 3, xf gets more powerful the less characters you have. in the case of anime games, you can use a defensive burst when you're getting hit/blocking. in the case of ultras/rage/whatever, you gain meter for getting hit. the list goes on, but this hopefully clears up any confusion.

[DogsofWar]

If someone X-factors....BLOCK. Did i just blow your minds?

If block doesnt work, dodge or keep away....omg dood!

If that doesnt work, use YOUR X-Factor! Oh lordy praise the Jesus!

There is NO down side to X-factor, we get it. Use the options above and stop flooding the DL forums with usesless whining (thats what SRK is for).

Fuck, new info please....

"But they only have one character left so their X-factor is better" You got them down to one character, you're better....act like it.

[the_d3v]

2ch tier list for the game lists everyone in either S or A tier.

[OmniSScythe]

Link?

[faultydefense]

proof that guilty gear bursts are not a comeback mechanic like x-factor:

gold burst beat blue burst

I HAVE NEVER SEEN ANYONE IN THE HISTORY OF EVER GET HIT ON PURPOSE TO BLUE BURST SOMEONE, but in the few weeks that marvels been out i see people THROW AWAY characters for a last ditch sent/phoenix