[CT-CS2] Carl Clover Loke Test

[Ca$$iu$ Check$]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1jOU1gmQ300

Hey at 4:34 of this vid, Carl does the glide throw, it gets broken, and then he air back dashes away. Is this something new? I thought in the previous versions your air options weren't reset until you touched the ground after an air throw break, so wouldn't the dash that was used for glide throw count as your one and only air dash, or am I misunderstanding the system?

[Ca$$iu$ Check$]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04GU-EPGaDY

2:52, 6C is air unblockable, strange

Edit: I forgot that a lot of the cast got anti-air properties added to their normals. Anyone know all of Carls? Just 6A and 6C so far?

Oh I see 5B is also, at 7:47 of this vid: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tnW8CO_4T-I

[Mascarpone]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1jOU1gmQ300

Hey at 4:34 of this vid, Carl does the glide throw, it gets broken, and then he air back dashes away. Is this something new? I thought in the previous versions your air options weren't reset until you touched the ground after an air throw break, so wouldn't the dash that was used for glide throw count as your one and only air dash, or am I misunderstanding the system?

I'm pretty sure you always have one air option after an air throw break. it's how you set up unblcokable resets with j.B+C(break) brio air dash (j.a)xN 8D in the corner and stuff.

[soujiro seta]

-After watching the vids, the main problem he's having is damage. I mean i see them carls do all that stuff, and mak/jin/noel/etc just run up and get 3k minimum off every hitconfirm. Since she dies faster you have to rely on usinig solo carl so much. That's the reason for his low damage. Rushdown characters are going to have so much fun with him. Nothing wrong in decreasing her meter, but giving him low damage too? Thinking that 3D will be his saving grace? Low damage and CS1 meter, or high damage and CS2 meter. Not low damage AND CS2 meter, that's just too much.

-His reset game also seems weaker. You have no choice but to use solo carl and combo into 3D to let nirvana recharge. This means that after you hit confirm in sandwich rather than attempt a reset, like before, you have go through the process of pressuring again after 3D and attempting to hit confirm again. You could skip that process and go straight for a reset but since she dies so quickly that would be a terrible idea unless you're sure you'll win with the follow up combo. On paper the whole "solo combo into 3D into solo combo again into 3D" sounds nice, but when the damage is so low, and she dies so quickly it makes for a bad combination.

-In CS1 iirc it took her 10 seconds to recharge fully after she broke. Now it takes her 15 seconds. Lol, better hope she doesn't break on you.

-Is it just me or does it take longer for her to start recharging?

[Zeero]

The concept is all wrong, you now have an oki based character, who's oki game (a good one) depends on Nirvana, except Nirvana doesn't have enough life to support the oki game. If you want any damage from your oki, you need to use Nirvana as well, so its like using half her bar for 2k, then you're left with the other half for your oki -> combo -> reset? ok...

Asides from that, this is what I've been seeing so far with the 3D, hopefully its because people just aren't used to using it well.

1. jC -> 3D doesn't combo - people time their tech over the 3d so it avoids blockstun from 3D, then its back to standard solo carl mixups with nirvana recovering

2. jC -> 3D combos -> it feels to me that jC knocks them down too fast, while 3D is hitting, you're still in the air, when you land, you probably can't follow up 3d with another combo, so it'll be blockstring -> mixup, we all know how good carl's mixups are from block right? (sarcasm)

3. jC -> no 3D - jC knocks them down too fast, by the time htey finish teching you've just landed, i don't like this lol.

I think if his jC didn't knockdown so fast/close, there'd be a lot more setups based on that. I think the current jC puts them too close to you to even like jC -> land -> iad j2C crossover and they recover too fast so its easy to react to.

Its a very thin line between broken and bottom for character concepts like Carl, I think in CS2 he definitely won't be higher than mid, in fact I see him as low. The only reason why he was top in CT was because of the throw loop (read, damage) and high tier in CS1 was because of his 5-6k average damage. It feels to me that the decrease in Nirvana's health is already a major part, but now they even took away his damage.

So sad =(

still playing him though lol

[Zoogstin]

Carl can definitely be a mid-tier character. That past 5 or so pages are way too depressing for anybody's own good. People need to stop being so pessimistic and just wait. You guys can state your worries that's fine. But some of you are just out-right declaring that Carl sucks!!!

We haven't seen jack yet. I'm just waiting to see his combos advance. I have a some ideas in my head that that I think will work but I need more vids to help with this.

[Zeero]

extended combos means nirvana will die and you will unlikely get anything off the following oki game. Not to mention with Carl's proration being 70% now, extended combos won't even do that much more damage.

nirvana dying and taking 16 seconds to recover now means within that 16 seconds, you're already dead.

Its also hard to see extended combos come out because:

1. You don't have good starters anymore, anything going into cantabile means you can probably only get 1 volante or 1 4d + 1 2d in your combo ending with 8D, and i guess you can still jC knockdown, Nirvana is already half dead by then. The only good starter you have is like, CH 3C which you may be able to do old combos again.

2. You probably won't top 3ishk due to all the prorations and cantabile. hitstun proration/same move proration/proration decrease in general raped his damage. You're sacrificing oki and half of nirvana's bar for 3k. I'm sure at this point in the vids its not that the combos don't work, its that the combo's arent worth it.

The game feels like back to CT when it favours people on the offense, people using gold bursts in combos will kill you now, especially the top tiers. To get out, you use a burst, which now you're at 2 primers. Not that it was different from CS1, but now that your vivace lost its invincibility and wakeup super for trades isn't very viable anymore, you're going ot be guard broken into command grabs which will kill you off.

Damage was the only saving grace for carl in both CT and CS1, they take it away, carl is done. Every Carl i see in vids so far wins because the opponent doesn't know how to block mixups from blocking (imo) which isn't very convincing. Its not like his setups off jC/3D were impressive, people just didn't know how to block iad j2c crossover. In fact I even see less possibilities with jC/3D than trying to reset off the ground without going into and air combo because the 3D pushes them towards carl making j2c crossover impossible. Yes im practically saying j2C crossover is the only legit mixup carl has.

I think his game will eventually evolve into ending ground sandwiches with rhapsody in hopes that the opponent doesn't know how to block. Because that actually does 3k+ without nirvana using much bar since DD's don't use bar and there are probably more setups from that than jC/3D

[ioKain]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szKIHzNSqZI

Some new Carl vids. 2B is air unblockable, lol. Also has a nice combo in corner. CH Brio, 5C, JB, JB, JC, Brio, 3C, Cantata.

[Akanishi]

^That guy is gyuudon, the person from whom I took info. He knows a lot of new setups, most of which are posted on his site. He also expressed his frustration on how Makoto is annoying.

But yeah, I can't really tell how good or how bad Carl will actually be at the moment. He has pretty good setups, but also big drawbacks that make him an easy target for characters that have really good damage and corner game. Like before I'll just wait and see, as long as he's interesting to play and isn't really bad I doubt I'll get annoyed with CS2.

[Zoogstin]

I made post to respond to your post Zeero but for some reason it never got posted. Simply put:

I understand what you're saying. CS2 Carl is not better than CS1 Carl. I'm not saying he ever will be.

We have to change our mentality about how we play Carl. From my perspective, j.C is doing wonders and has upped Carl's solo game. Which will make up for the increased number times we have to let nirvana heal.

Just because she loses health faster doesn't mean that we have to let her die. Carl can do anywhere from 5-8k before needing to stop to let nirvana heal. Remember she still recovers fast if she's in standby, and there will be plenty of opportunities to allow this. On the last combo finish it with either a super or allegretto and send the opponent to the other side of the screen (this is the same strategy we've been using with since CT). Plus with the cantible combos, Carl's combos last longer which help with time stalling as well. Carl still has options alone with the new j.C knockdown without nirvana, although they are as good, no. Also we may a lot of meter chasing the opponent but consider the meter she'll gain back when the match is neutral and the opponent is just stalling on the other side of screen. This happens a lot and we might as well enjoy the breather.

All I'm saying is, just because we can't be as reckless with nirvana as we could in CS1 doesn't mean its the end of the world.

But no lie, I'm gonna miss CS1 carl.

[Mascarpone]

cantabile ->6B sj.B is kind of a curious thing.

[soujiro seta]

As much as I hate to be a bearer of bad news, once again, I agree with Zeero.

-Zoogs, we aren't worried about what could be found out later, potential resets/strats/etc. We are talking about a problem that will plague him for the rest of CS2. Nirvana's meter and his damage. Her meter isn't going to get bigger over time, and, as zeero said, you aren't going to see those 3k combos, till the very end of a round to guarantee the win, cause it isn't worth it mid-round. Conserving her meter is greather than damage, especially when she requires 15 seconds to recharge after she breaks and has so little meter to use to begin with. This also affects the new resets/strats/etc cause you have to conserve meter and can't just use one after the other to keep your opponent guessing. The carls are taking so many pauses in between everything and trying to pressure with solo carl (like he has any pressure by himself) because of this.

-I too also agree that the setups after 3D haven't been impressive. Once again the people just didn't know how to block and the carls have won out of their opponents ignorance. Heck in 95% of the vids they don't hit nirvana. It's like they don't even realize she's there.

-His potential off 3D pickup, although good, is hindered by nirvana's meter. People tech at the right time to avoid it. The problem is now carl has to pressure, but with what meter? You can't pressure for long either. I'm not saying you could pressure for forever in CS1, but nirvana lasted long enough to keep your opponent guessing for a while, and when you did hitconfirm, even if her meter wasn't much, you could still deal worth while damage. All 3D does is give him oki, but what good is that if you can't pressure cause nirvana will die on you.

-Even with having to use cantabile to extend combos, she doesn't even get much back. By the time you do 3D, and assuming your opponent blocks it or their tech nullifies it, once you start pressuring and use 6D once you would have lost the little you gained back. So in the end you have to try and do so much solo carl stuff, but solo carl can't do anything. Infact going on solo carl missions is a fast way to guarantee a loss.

Imo, 99% of the carl vids we've seen so far don't really show anything. The opponents of the carl players didn't even know how to fight carl. They fell for iad j.2C allecan too much. It was so obvious that the carl player would do it, and they just sat there and did nothing about it. Also, why aren't they attacking nirvana again? If anything, the carl players have played much better than their opponents, and even then they still came close to losing.

The matches in this vid, show what happens when people atleast have an idea/a bit of experience.

The bang seemed to just be running around the place, but that match shows what happens when carl tries to keep rushdown characters out. If you want to use nirvana as defense, she'll break. The bang also has nothing to fear, cause if carl hitconfirms "lol 1.8k". Eventually she ran out and he almost lost the first round.

Mu vs carl was already a bad matchup now it looks to be 8-2. In the second round, the Mu showed a point that I've been trying to get across for so long now: What happens when you face someone that actually knows how to block? What meter do you have to pressure - hitconfirm - solo combo - 3D - pressure again - hitconfirm -etc? You don't. That 2nd round showed this. Once she blocked his stuff, the carl was done for by default. He realized she was dead and tried to, lol, "pressure" with solo carl. If that were CS1 he would have still had plenty meter to make her guess some more.

The mu, ara, haz, tao matchups just got worse. It was hard enough to catch them even in CS1 and you used nirvana like crazy. Now in CS2 it'll be almost impossible.

What we've seen won't work on the top players. The carls have won out of their opponents lack of matchup knowledge and not knowing how to block. Eesuke, kyaku, acho-carls, (good carls in general) etc vs kaqn, buppa, dora, galileo, tsujikawa, shounen, (good opponents who know the matchup and how to block and tech throws) etc would be a better representation of how effective he can/cannot be. Those are the vids I'm personally waiting for.

[soujiro seta]

Also Zoogs, we aren't complaining that we "can't be reckless", it's that you don't have the meter to make your opponent scared. All you have to do is block for a few seconds against him, he'll stop and attempt to "pressure" with solo carl cause she'll die, and that's your opportunity to wreck him. It's such an easy strat.

The "5-8k without needing to stop to let nirvana heal" is assuming that right when they neutral to avoid 3D pickup you immediately hitconfirm afterwards. So the 1.8k combos eventually add up to 5k. That's the problem, the people in the vids fell for iad j.2C allecan all the time right after 3D. You won't come close to 5k if your opponent knows how to block, and you won't have the meter to pressure either. So you'll be stuck with solo carl and be free for your opponent to do what they want until she recharges

I hope I'm not coming off as all gloom and doom, it's just right now his design is flawed and I'm trying to understand how we can make this "low meter, low damage" combo work, but I can't think of anything.

[Akanishi]

Looking at the newest video with Carl... I miss CS1 Nirvana already... （´・ω・｀）

[ansem]

I don't understand why they're nerfing a character with a high learning curve and difficulty of use. A character like Carl should not be low tier. What's the point in trying him out and trying to learn how to use him effectively if he sucks, he has the lowest health, limited movement, 4 primers and now he deals less damage and Ada dies quicker. That's no fun at all.

I rarely see any Carl players online and in tourneys, theres a chance we might not see any at all. Some of you guys say that he might still be mid tier but I kinda doubt that since characters like Makoto, Hakumen, Rachel, Hazama, Mu, Lambda, Arakune, and Tager are good at hurting Nirvana and rushing Carl down.

[Zeero]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szKIHzNSqZI

Some new Carl vids. 2B is air unblockable, lol. Also has a nice combo in corner. CH Brio, 5C, JB, JB, JC, Brio, 3C, Cantata.

lol that carl shows exactly what i'm talking about.

all these gimmicky setups which aren't exactly effective. They might get hit but it gets him nothing, setups thats hurt people know how to block. Those setups were so gimmicky its like "6b fucoco superjump airdash back" lol

Does anyone know why people stopped doing 2D in combos btw? i don't even see people try to cantabile 5B 2D anymore. does 2D knock down on air hit or something Volante i can understand since it takes like 20% of her bar

I'm not so much in support for the concept of "solo carl". I mean if we have to end up relying on solo carl, then that symbolizes a character design flaw right? We're playing a character that has a drive button just to control nirvana yet we're can't use it? Its like saying we might as well restrict Arakune from getting curse twice in a round or something.

In my community where people have fought me so much, they won't fall for j2c crossovers on block (actually they punish it). Its easier to land j2c crossovers off hits, but i only win because of jB fatal/damage off setups.

While j2c crossovers off hits are still possible in CS2, all i'm saying is that we're not getting anything added to Carl's game and only stuff taken away if we're going to end up relying on the same setups as CS1 except do half as much damage.

I hate to be realistic but to me the whole CS2 carl concept is kind of flawed in so many ways. Oki character without good(new) oki mixups, zoning character? without exactly the tools to zone, can't rushdown, can't defend. lol

To be honest though, i'm looking towards playing CS2 Carl just because hes so gimmicky/trolly. In that vid, he did like cantabile 5C superjump jAC fucoco and airdash back jB, something like that? Although I don't see it as a useful setup, it looks troll and I love trolling lol.

As a side note, Arakune pit super off jC as well? that hurts my feelings =( ground string -> 6B -> pit super, air string -> jC -> pit super. Bye carl.

[Mascarpone]

No one does 2D anymore because apparently it does no damage and lost it's special proration.

[Marisa]

I don't understand why they're nerfing a character with a high learning curve and difficulty of use. A character like Carl should not be low tier. What's the point in trying him out and trying to learn how to use him effectively if he sucks, he has the lowest health, limited movement, 4 primers and now he deals less damage and Ada dies quicker. That's no fun at all.

I rarely see any Carl players online and in tourneys, theres a chance we might not see any at all. Some of you guys say that he might still be mid tier but I kinda doubt that since characters like Makoto, Hakumen, Rachel, Hazama, Mu, Lambda, Arakune, and Tager are good at hurting Nirvana and rushing Carl down.

Everyone got nerfed, and I didn't figure Carl would get out without at least losing his long combos (as Carl and Litchi were the biggest reasons people wanted them gone.) The problem is that the system changes and Carl's nerfs really seem to be hitting him harder than a lot of other characters.

As has been said, why bother with Carl's learning curve if there's no real reward for it? Sure there's "reward" in playing an underused/low tier character and doing well, but Carl had underused status when he was good.

Still hoping that some amazing strategy is discovered that puts Carl back in action, but I still get the feeling he's going to be benchwarming harder than ever.

[TheEssWord]

Noticed 5C is air unblockable in http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AGcbigYFhyI. That makes... 6A, 5B, 2B, 5C, 6C, 8D, and Brio. We have like 3 ground normals as solo Carl that aren't air unblockable lol.

I'm pretty sure I saw A-vivace go through something in another video, so it might not have had its invincibility removed.

Also, big bang upper - is this still completely air unblockable?

[Zeero]

No one does 2D anymore because apparently it does no damage and lost it's special proration.

-2D got a HUGE damage buff from 720->1220 but a P2 nerf from 90->80. Both of those are huge jumps

Just because the proration is bad doesn't mean you can't end a combo with 2D superjump jC 3D or something like that

I also thought they went GG style with the air unblockables, that everything but 5A ground based is pretty much air unblockable. Air unblockable being you need to FD of course...

[Zoogstin]

Carl would need to do more than jC if he wants nirvana to recover fast enough to to a 3D.

The best 2D is good for now is a combo starter which isn't going to happen too often.

[Niko]

I also thought they went GG style with the air unblockables, that everything but 5A ground based is pretty much air unblockable.

One of the earlier CS2 videos showed that Hakumen's 5A is air-unblockable. Eep!

On topic: I'm mostly worried that these changes will just homogenize the cast more and Carl won't be as much fun. The unique play style of controlling not one but two characters simultaneously is what drew me to the Clover siblings in the first place; I'm definitely not liking the direction of having to rely on solo Carl a lot (regardless of whether or not he'd be viable on his own).

Like the rest of you, I'm still cautiously optimistic and hoping for new discoveries that will put Mr. Tophat in a better spot.

[Zeero]

Carl would need to do more than jC if he wants nirvana to recover fast enough to to a 3D.

The best 2D is good for now is a combo starter which isn't going to happen too often.

well like, 2D j2c allecan 5C superjump AC or something, I'm sure they can do something to get the jC ender for 3D.

I mean like, i'm seeing this Carl loop the 8D twice in the combo. I know 8D reverse prorates now so it makes sense to do it, but i thought i still same move prorates like crazy? Unless the same move prorate is still more damage that 2D i guess. Which would be pretty sad for 2D.

now that i think about it

this is just sad

forget why i asked

actually no way, how can 8D under same move proration do more damage >_< i'm confused as hell

[Zoogstin]

I think I recall during one the loketests that same move proration was changed on 8D. I think its related to the reverse proration that it received considering how it does hit twice. Yeah I don't quite understand everything either. I guess we're gonna have to wait until the frame data is released and translated.

[Zeero]

I guess we're gonna have to wait until we play it

oh wait...