[CS1] Valkenhayn Technical Discussion

[Sophisticat]

Funny, I was just thinking about potential resets today. Valkenhayn doesn't seem to be strong in the mixup category, but I think he's going to have a couple things going for him.

Taking Ronove's 4.5k reset, I presume a standard reset would be to go into Wolf command throw. Since command throw has a lot of meterless damage from following combos, I think it's safe to say a bnb reset might easily lead to 8-9k for only 50% meter. Not bad.

Now, regarding his mixup, I've been thinking about 5b's jc'able properties (I'm assuming 2b isn't?). Could someone test whether 5b -> j.C (or that downward kick normal that does knockdown) is an instant overhead? Or if any 5b -> j.X leads to one for that matter?

Also, this opens up possibilities for his blockstrings. I think I read somewhere that his blockstrings have a lot of pushback, and I also saw that j.B seems to be good at crossing up, so perhaps one could do [whatever] -> 5b -> 2b -> 5b -> j.B cross.

Other potential stuff with the same block string:

[whatever] -> 5b -> 2b -> 2b

[whatever] -> 5b -> 2b -> 6c

Ya'll get the idea.

His switch into Wolf seems to be very fast too, so I think you can do tick command throw with proper conditioning of the other guy.

Of course, someone needs to test this.

[Prinnical Shock]

Try to purple throw the wolf command throw in the corner and watch your bnb damage go up like 4k.

Any B/C button combos into Astral.

Astral is air unblockable.

Does that apply towards barrier as well?

[JammyKuradoberi]

wow soo many combos already,I'm sooo writing some down,you people works fast

thanks you

[TITANIUM BEAST!!!]

Now, regarding his mixup, I've been thinking about 5b's jc'able properties (I'm assuming 2b isn't?). Could someone test whether 5b -> j.C (or that downward kick normal that does knockdown) is an instant overhead? Or if any 5b -> j.X leads to one for that matter?

Set computer to crouching -> block all and disable guard switching. 5B(blocked), JC to instant j.C will hit crouching opponents. With meter this makes 5B-2B/5B-3C or 5B -> j.C a legitimate 50/50 for high or low guard.

With meter, j.C -> j.236236C for 2923 dmg. This is verifiable as well, so if life is low, you have an easy way to kill someone who doesn't know which way to block. If they block correctly, j.C can be jump canceled on guard, so you can get away safely. Mix up with 2B or 3C and do combos from there (2B is probably more flexible, but much harder to do strong combos off of from my limited practice).

2A is also JCable on block, so you can run the same mixup, which is probably scarier given that 2A has less pushout and you still have the option of chaining to 5B from 2A, making the mixup more ambiguous.

For when you don't have meter, I've been working on more sophisticated shift-based mixups. Canceling j.C into j.214B and then instantly canceling into wolf can be very ambiguous. Looks something like this:

5B(blocked) -> j.C~j.214B~3D...

Options include:

1. [w]j.A or [w]j.B for high as you fall (can combo or use as a tick for [w]236D)

2. land and [w]5A for low

3. land and [w]236D to throw

These are really basic and there are probably some other options involving different movements to bait certain things or create crossups. These probably work best if j.C hits.

Testing with Ragna, I have yet to find a way to bait an ID with this setup. Against characters with certain reversals it may not be very useful.

[TITANIUM BEAST!!!]

double post

So I found out you can RC the recovery pose of j.236236C where Valkenhayn stands there after landing from his last attack. End result is with 100% heat, you can get a nice combo after j.C.

j.C -> j.236236C -> RC, dash 2B-5C -> HJC, hj.B -> j.214B -> 9D, [w]j.A -> [w]j.236A -> [w]j.236B -> [w]j.5C -> 5D, j.B -> JC, j.B-C

This deals 5101 dmg and is relatively easy. You build back 27 heat from this combo.

j.C -> j.236236C -> RC+D, [w]5C -> 5D, 2C-6B, 2C -> JC, j.D, [w]j.A-A-A -> [w]j.236A -> [w]j.236B -> [w]j.5C -> 5D, j.B -> j.214B -> 9D, 5D, j.B -> JC, j.B-C

This one is much more difficult, but deals 6043 dmg and gets back 34 heat. The RC+D means press all four buttons to RC so that you immediately shift forms after RCing. There is a slight delay after RCing and shifting before you can do [w]5C, the next part is similar to Challenge 9 where you have to cancel wolf quickly to land 2C after the command grab. The rest of the combo mimics that challenge as well.

[CODE=BLUE]

Wouldn't it be better to go 5b>5c>236c>wolf combo after 6b?

I'm not consistent w/ the wolf combos yet so I don't know the damage on it. I was going to list all the variations off of 5B CH once I personally had them all down. Just wanted to get that one out of the way first since I didn't see anyone talking about CH combos yet.

[Buana]

Astral Combo in corner

Throw > Dash > 2C > 6C > 214214C

5577 damage for 27 hit

in Midscreen

2C > 6B > 214214C

7674 damage for 26 hit

[Dark Laplace]

Astral Combo in corner

Throw > Dash > 2C > 6C > 214214C

5577 damage for 27 hit

in Midscreen

2C > 6B > 214214C

7674 damage for 26 hit

almost 8k from 3 moves?! Jeeze... @__@ can you say instant S-tier?

[eirei]

Uhh, 214214C is his astral.

[Seyluun]

And Makoto proved that big damage mean nothing if you cant land a hit in the first place.

Midscreen RC combo: (5b)>5c>236a>rc>2c>6b>5b>6c>236c>9d>jaa(a)>236b>236a>5cd>jb>j214b>9dd>jb>djb>jc so basically his 2c combo with a 236a before that. that give him good damage from a nearly max range 5c so it s good to learn.

There's plenty of combos to upgrade or add to the first post btw. Correct wolf bnb is jb>5b>236b>236b>236a>5cd>jb>j214b>9dd>jb>djb>jc. Also, doing CH 5b>6b>5b>6c>236c>9d>jaa(a)>236b>236a>5cd>jb>j214b>9dd>jb>djb>jc give you about 4.3k damage.

[Andarel]

10:25ish in the vs Makoto match, his 5c knocks her out of her 3c.

Especially since it looks like it should whiff, the more you know...

[Sophisticat]

Nice, thanks for checking into it, TB. Looks like he does have a couple setups.

So I found out you can RC the recovery pose of j.236236C where Valkenhayn stands there after landing from his last attack. End result is with 100% heat, you can get a nice combo after j.C.

Haha, I was going to suggest trying out this one next, but you beat me to it.

Another thing I thought about: j.C seems to have a low hitbox, so it gave me the ideas for my previous post. Thinking about it more, is it possible it might also have fuzzy properties like a low Hakumen j.B (low j.B (blocked) -> instant dj.B)? The hitbox might not stretch out horizontally enough, but it's worth a shot.

Suggestion for first post:

Posting the optimal bnb strings in bold with proper starters at the beginning of the post would be appreciated. It makes it easier to filter out which combos are useful and which are not. It's cool to post up every combo that gets posted, but getting overenthusiastic clutters things up. I suggest a minimalist style for the sake of readability.

[Ronove]

I had a long session (offline) today with my sparring partners and had the chance to try Valk's BnBs and other things

First off, the combo that start from 5B > 3C > 2B > 5C > etc when done midscreen is only possible if you land a 5B really close (or supposedly if you hitconfirm off a jump C). If you use 2A to hitconfirm that string you'll be pushed back far enough that the part 3C > 2B won't link, unless you hit the opponent REALLY DEEP. At the corner it works fine.

Now, considering that Valk's 5B is a good poke from distance but not exactly optimal in close range (depending on situation of course), hitconfirming safely that BnB seems to be possible only through a jump in or if you go 2A > 3C and skip 5B.

It's a bit of a bummer that 5B > 5C > 236C only combos on CH, with normal hit it becomes a sort of a gimmick (a risky gimmick considering that it's not that hard to IB 5C after 5B).

[Seyluun]

yeah 5b 3c combo wont see much use. Midscreen you ll need either meter for 5b 5c 236a RC or CH 5b 6b.

[Jais]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9g3uzzFANoM

5B>5C

~standing only is tiger knee

~crouching only is BBU

corner specific loop

2C>6B, 2C>6C,5C>jc.214B, land[D] 2C>j.C beast cannons awesome

FC crouching is shoulder loop

FC 6C is corner loop plus ground super ender ( descending wolf combo)

I thoroughly enjoy combos w/ flowcharts.

Yay for not using 3C, 2B>5C on everybody

<3 Valkenhayn

[Felicia]

10:25ish in the vs Makoto match, his 5c knocks her out of her 3c.

Especially since it looks like it should whiff, the more you know...

5C tracks ground pretty well, actually. Wish I could say the same for some other character's 5Cs.

So the new Valk mirror match is the same two players from the previous match up. There's a lot more patience this time around over the last set of games. It definitely seems to suggest that Valkenhayn needs to be patient and wait for those openings, and press the advantage when he can.

It also seems to suggest that Valkenhayn can really stop momentum before it starts. Note 5C beating Makoto's 3C. I suspect there could be similar advances against Valk that could be stopped with just a few of his normals.

Not too much use of wolf outside of combos this time around, there's a clear risk vs. reward when using it. I wonder if the idea behind using wolf form outside of combos is to pressure or maintain an offensive, rather than try and advance using Valk's human form?

[eirei]

http://www16.atwiki.jp/bbcs-varuken/pages/17.html

[NickExtreme1]

I wonder if the idea behind using wolf form outside of combos is to pressure or maintain an offensive, rather than try and advance using Valk's human form?

I agree with this question; wolf form could be used in the opposite manner as well? Using it to get away from ongoing pressure (against characters like Tsubaki, Ragna ?) as well since he doesn't appear to have a safe reversal?

[Buana]

Midscreen combo from C moves

2C > 6B > 3C > 2B > 632146C

24 hit for 5011 damage (50% Meter required )

[Almadiel]

How odd... Valk's ground super cannot be normal blocked low, but it can be barrier blocked low. See the Makoto match at the end http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm12202009

[GenoWhirl]

Posting the optimal bnb strings in bold with proper starters at the beginning of the post would be appreciated. It makes it easier to filter out which combos are useful and which are not. It's cool to post up every combo that gets posted, but getting overenthusiastic clutters things up. I suggest a minimalist style for the sake of readability.

I was going to do it like in the Mu boards, bolding the Bnbs in red. However I'm waiting till we decide which are the most practical ones before I start bolding.

Brb updating thread

Midscreen combo from C moves

2C > 6B > 3C > 3B > 632146C

I assume you mean 2B . Pretty cool that Valkfunka combos from 2B

(5b)>5c>236a>rc>2c>6b>5b>6c>236c>9d>jaa(a)>236b>236a>5cd>jb>j214b>9dd>jb>djb>jc

Correct wolf bnb is jb>5b>236b>236b>236a>5cd>jb>j214b>9dd>jb>djb>jc. Also, doing CH

What is the damage on these?

[Ronove]

Thanks for the link Jais, too bad I already had my practice session and didn't look at this thread earlier else I would have tried a couple of these combos (especially the 5B > 5C and the 2C and FC 6C ones) in match, I guess I'll be trying them tomorrow in training :X

Some pretty nice stuff in that clip, we needed solid alternatives other than the 5B > 3C combos since they can easily whiff unless you are on the opponent's face, being able to combo off 5B > 5C is definetely better. The FC combos are pretty insane and it's also worth to point out that a lot of these combos gain a lot of meter, meaning that at the second hitconfirm you can already use a super as combo ender or rapid.

[Jais]

You are most welcome ^^

vs standing opponent

5B>5C>j.Cxxj.Super connects

[Andarel]

So is [2A > 2C > C > 236A] xN a loop off fatal? Without fatal? It's grounded, so can you get a third rep (no dealing with untech time)? The nico vid (@2:11) showed it being doable twice, but it wasn't clear about enders. Valk seems to prorate well in general (looking at frame data), so if that loops more...kind of silly. He's looking like he can get amazing reward off a lot of his moves - some of his light combo starters still seem pretty solid.

[GenoWhirl]

[h] CH 6B > 2C > 5C > 236A > (2A > 2C > 5C > 236A) x2 > 2A > 5B > 2B > 5C > 632146D

So yes it's a fatal probably. The combo seems to build 50 meter so you can always end with Valkfunka