[CS1] Valkenhayn vs Bang

[Urichinan]

Discuss the Valkenhayn vs. Bang matchup here.

-To consider-

Character specif combos

Ways of approach

Proper AA's

Opening moves

specif points in chars pressure to counter

[Jais]

I'd like somebody to check if Valk can [w]8C through D nails :3

[STenSatsu]

I don't think the straight rushes have invul so prolly not.

[fragile]

I'd like somebody to check if Valk can [w]8C through D nails :3

I was able to trade CH 2C between nails for juicy 6k combo

2B goes under bang's 5a, which is pretty useful.

[JinSaotome]

Bang is weak in the AA department without meter, so if you get him on the defensive, terrorize him with j.C and [w]j.B

This matchup is probably in Bang's favor. Both characters have strong offense and terrible defense, but Bang has the advantage of being able to force you on the defensive much much easier with D Nails.

EDIT: Oh yeah, and if he tries to get smug with 2D when you do [w]5C j.B, land and [w]5A into combo.

[OrionXElite]

Bang is weak in the AA department without meter, so if you get him on the defensive, terrorize him with j.C and [w]j.B

This matchup is probably in Bang's favor. Both characters have strong offense and terrible defense, but Bang has the advantage of being able to force you on the defensive much much easier with D Nails.

EDIT: Oh yeah, and if he tries to get smug with 2D when you do [w]5C j.B, land and [w]5A into combo.

Actually, Bang having bad AA options is a common misconception. His only LEGIT AA(As in having head invul) is his 5C which is weird as fuck BUT his 5B can beat out almost anything thats in the air. While I haven't tested it, it mostly will beat out Valk's [h] j.B but not his j.C. Likewise, I'd guess his [w] j.B may be kinda hard to beat out too.

Bang has nails which puts Valk on defense instantly and even if Bang lost his nails and got put on defense, there are gonna be a few holes in Valk's pressure Bang can exploit with 2D. So its probably 6-4 in Bang's favor cause even though he has more options, Valk's damage fucking hurts even Bang's 12k health. Also one thing in Valk's favor is that Valk is the only character who can match Bang in the mixup department thanks to Wolf dashes. Valk's ability to have nearly un-reactable mixup is gonna be hard for Bang to deal with.

Also interesting thought, I can imagine high level of this being a command fest since both sides lack reversals :3

[huey253]

you should go check the frame data, bang's 5C doesn't have head invinicibility. it is airunblockable though/

bang's 5B will usually trade with all jump ins, so people normally go with 5A/jA for anti air.

bang should just block though...

however, bang forums think this match up is 6-4 in valkenhayn's favor, and i'm not buying that.

[STenSatsu]

Rofl, it seems like it'd be 5-5 because they both have shit defense and really good offense. I'd swing it in Bang's favor personally just because he has a much easier time getting in and continuing his pressure during blockstrings. His normals are also way better.

[TD]

Bang is much easier to react to though. l'd say even.

[BladeOfJustice7]

Rofl, it seems like it'd be 5-5 because they both have shit defense and really good offense. I'd swing it in Bang's favor personally just because he has a much easier time getting in and continuing his pressure during blockstrings. His normals are also way better.

How does bang have shit defense when he has 11500 health and 6 primers, that's the third best defense in the game.

[STenSatsu]

He has no reversal before 50 meter so he has to eat mixup for free once you start on him. I don't really consider life/primers when I say defense usually. Mostly because I consider defensive options much more important.

[BladeOfJustice7]

He has no reversal before 50 meter so he has to eat mixup for free once you start on him. I don't really consider life/primers when I say defense usually. Mostly because I consider defensive options much more important.

Ok, so you ment reversal options and ability to get out of mix ups. Defense to me is how much you can block/take hits.

[Wrathos]

As always bang's IB 5a stuffs a lot of things... and bang's insane Oki game doesn't help valk any. I'd say either 5.5:4.5 or 6:4 in bang's favor.

[huey253]

valkenhayn's wolf normals are extremely silly. instant overheads, 5B!

i think its even imo

[Jais]

I hate this thread.

This discussion is the reason it was locked for so long.

>(

All you guys are doing is making excuses for why you are losing or winning instead of discussing HOW to win this fight.

[huey253]

true ^^

probably won't be anything solid from anyone for a while. people aren't really comfortable with valkenhayn yet anyways.

[STenSatsu]

How to win the fight: Rush down because Bang doesn't have very good AA/reversals and you want him to be on defense as much as possible. 2c is good against most of his air shit even if it trades since usually Bang is kind of high on his air approach. Bang will probably beat you air to air from what I've seen so watch out for that. Haven't had any trouble with his hitbox for combos so nothing special there. If you aren't actively mixing Bang up or making him block, try to be more midrange than close up because you outrange him with your better pokes. Try to start wolf mixup with a blocked 6b/5b into rush/2a to not get jabbed out of it.

Match doesn't feel bad as long as you can block well. You both kill the other in about 3 combos but Valk has better abare with meter imo and a better mixup game once he actually gets Bang blocking wolf. I almost want to say get in the air if he jumps even if he may outpoke you so you don't get forced to block dnails.

[Akira-Shiro]

Like someone said before this match-up is most deff a 5-5 neither of us have a reversal so its eat pressure till they F-up. Bang may have an easyer time getting in buts hes only doing 2-3K or 4K wit a DD.

While Valk is doin 5-6K or 7-8K wit DD so id say its even, both have very good priority but wile fightin Valk if u dont IB ur not doing anything, with Bang it dont really matter if u IB or not ?.?

So it comes down to one of us making the most mistake

[Zeromegaman]

No Way Bang can do 3-5.5K sometimes 6k with a DD.

And no even without IB you can pass right through Valk, especially with Bang. Nails are the biggest problem in this match up as Bang's pressure we can easily slip out of with Wolf Dash or IB and countering.

Bang's 3C may come as a surprise and is very useful for when were landing in Wolf Form so be sure to stay on your toes. Bang's 236236D Distortion is his best equipment in this as we jump in with Wolf its a guaranteed slap in the face, so do be aware of how many Nails he has and how high his Distortion meter is.

2D is the most you'll be seeing from Bang if we use too much pressure so be sure to jump after wards as they like to do 2D into A and get a hit that they can combo into with j.A,j.B, 6236B which will lead into a wall bounce and a rinse. So do be careful.

Never Stay in Wolf form longer than you need to, for Oki game 6C is the best you can throw or a 236C. Mix these up, once they used to one throw the other out there.

Otherwise Valk has a great chance against Bang, Bang's advantages being his Drive and Nails.

[Azzal]

Fought a good Bang today (well I don't know if he was really good, Bang is such a skilless character to play with, or if he was just spamming D, I'll come back to that later), and got totally destroyed (well first time I played a good Bang with my VK).

I was always under pressure, and I couldn't put pressure on him, he was like spamming 2D everywhere, drove me crasy. I could do shit against it. Couldn't put holes in my pressing, 2D fucked up everyone of my moves. It was really insane. After a 236A, I could only wait, because if I transformed =2D, if I wait a bit for 2a= 2D, if got direct to 2a, again I eat 2D. And 236 A follow ups are just exemples, 2D destroyed all my approaches and pressures.

I was totally like: wtf's just happening.

You're saying that in this match up our pressure game is our best tool against Bang, but hell, I couldn't even apply a pressure game, 2D all over the place. It was like playing SF4 online against a SRK furious, total nonsense.

[huey253]

Fought a good Bang today (well I don't know if he was really good, Bang is such a skilless character to play with, or if he was just spamming D, I'll come back to that later), and got totally destroyed (well first time I played a good Bang with my VK).

I was always under pressure, and I couldn't put pressure on him, he was like spamming 2D everywhere, drove me crasy. I could do shit against it. Couldn't put holes in my pressing, 2D fucked up everyone of my moves. It was really insane. After a 236A, I could only wait, because if I transformed =2D, if I wait a bit for 2a= 2D, if got direct to 2a, again I eat 2D. And 236 A follow ups are just exemples, 2D destroyed all my approaches and pressures.

I was totally like: wtf's just happening.

You're saying that in this match up our pressure game is our best tool against Bang, but hell, I couldn't even apply a pressure game, 2D all over the place. It was like playing SF4 online against a SRK furious, total nonsense.

2D loses to lows... and valkenhayn has low attacks.

[BatousaiJ]

2D loses to lows... and valkenhayn has low attacks.

This.

2D spamming bangs are free to 3C, 236B and throws.

Just don't spam predictable blockstrings i.e. 5B -> 5C -> 6C over and over again and think you're not going to be punished for it, + on block or not.

[Azzal]

Hum ok. I play CT since it's out, and CS too, and I didn't know this... Well it's hard to figure out thou, as Bang is in a crouching state...

My bad....u_u

You can notice I didn't work on Bang's match up since the beginning...

Thanks for advice.

[-Tsu-]

My notes on this matchup:

PUNISHMENT (meterless, if not listed it's either safe be made safe from gatlings, jumpcancel, etc)

Drive punishes (IB ONLY)

5d - (-9IB): 5a, 2a or 5b punish, 2a>3c>2b will usually be to far to work, best stick with 5b>3c>236b>236b for about 2k unless you have meter.

2d - (-10IB): 5a, 2a or 5b punish, recovers in crouch so 2a>5b>5c>236c combos. 5b>2c>6b will get pushed too far for the 6b to connect

6d - (-9IB): 5a, 2a or 5b punish. Will usualy be close enough to do 5b>2c>6b>ect.

j.d - (-6IB): dont even bother blocking this shit, 2c on reaction almost always hits after the guard point.

Drives can be a pain in the ass for your pressure game, make sure he pays big every time, most of these arn't to hard to IB if you pay attention

Normals/Specials

623B- (-5)(-9IB): unless the bang player is dumb, you should never be in range to punish this anyway

6b - (-3)(-8IB): 2a>3c>ect if close, 2a>2c>6b>ect point blank, 2a>3c>236b>236b

3c- (-16)(-21IB): ya you know how unsafe this shit is, once agian tho unless the opponent is being dumb or desperate, he'll rapid for safety.

DDs

632146B - LOL, backdash will usually clear it midscreen at least

2363214C - (-27): Punish with whatever you want, fatal 6b combo recomended.

236236D - (-5) (-10IB): 2a>3c relaunch if point blank (usually will be), 5b>3c>236b>236b from far

Strats: 2c rapes everything he has for jumpins, beats it clean or trades in your favor for a combo. If he tries to get cute with j.d you can jumpcancel and IB if you see it get autoguarded. j.C will win air to air if your higher than him, any other angle his j.A and j.B will wreck you. 5a has a really dumb habit of whiffing on him standing when very close, hence it's not recommended for the punishes above

[OrionXElite]

Don't rely on 2C as he will just rape you with nails for trying. 2C will dominate against his crossups though so be sure to catch them. If you wanna beat a jump in that isn't using nails for safe approach and a little less predictable, throw out 6A and get the guard point to eat the hit. You HAVE to save your meter for CA against Bang or you will lose flat out. His mixup is too safe and too strong to just block it forever and hope for the best. Also in air to air situations, Valk's j.B CAN beat out Bang and if you option select 214B after it, you'll be at a very good advantage if he gets hit by either hit or blocks both. Just throw it out a bit early. The only way to win this matchup is to keep pressure on him and be ruthless about it. Bang can't do shit about it if hes blocking. Drives are unreliable, Daifunka is too risky and Ashura isn't invul till about frame 3 so it isn't completely reliable. This matchup is 100% who can get the other blocking first wins. Also if you can react fast enough, 6A through his 5C, its a ghetto block but it gets him out of your face. The guard point starts around frame 4 so it should work .