[CS2] Valkenhayn Vs. μ -12

[Urichinan]

Discuss the Valkenhayn vs. μ -12 (Mu-12) matchup here.

Punishes:

Anti-airing:

Zoning:

Their game plan:

Strategy:

Char specific details:

Special Throw combo off of Back Throw(4BC):

Back Throw: 4BC>RC>Rozen>9D>[W]j.A>j.236A>j.236B>C>j.B>j.B>Land>5B>JC>D>[H]j.B>dj.B>dj.C (3022 Damage, 23 Heat gained back)

[OrionXElite]

Char. Specific Detail:

Special Throw combo off of Back Throw(4BC):

Back Throw: 4BC>RC>Rozen>9D>[W]j.A>j.236A>j.236B>C>j.B>j.B>Land>5B>JC>D>[H]j.B>dj.B>dj.C (3022 Damage, 23 Heat gained back)

I'll add more as I play the matchup more. This is a really fucking weird matchup.

[Kiba]

Why don't we discuss some ways to approach her? It's difficult as hell.

Anything I try in wolf form gets beat by either her 5C, 6C or 2C. I try something like 7C - 7C - Wolf cannon and that seems to work, rarely I may add.

It's a nuisence when she has lasers flying around since it really stuffs our mobility...

[OrionXElite]

This is actually supposedly to be one of Mu's worst matchups. I've heard at worst 65/35 Valk's favor. Albeit she has the ability to throw out the steins and get lasers flying everywhere. Valk can get in so fast that it just takes one bad move on Mu's part to have a Wolf in her face. The most obvious start would be instantly get into Wolf form and start approaching. Valk gets a lot of advantage by getting the offensive first instead of waiting for an opening. If you can get to her before she has the chance to get some steins out, she has some major problems. If you can avoid the DP and bait her high priority moves(2C especially but also 5C and j.C) you'll be able to give her a real hard time. And in most cases even if steins are out about to fire lasers, if you just keep moving, they won't hit you.

Think of it like the Arakune match, get to him before he can start throwing out clouds and pill bugs and hes in deep shit. The only difference is that Mu has a DP which you need to watch for.

[Airk]

Wouldn't immediate wolf-and-rush run into problems with the fact that Mu has moves she can hit you with right off the bat at round start? Is there any reason Mu wouldn't want to start with 6C here? Wouldn't that stuff attempts to immediately wolf and close? I guess it depends on whether you can get out of the area of effect before it hits.

[OrionXElite]

Starting with 6C would only be god as a deliberate counter to Wolf at the start. If Valk jumps when Mu does 6C, she eats shit for it. Mu's primary objective at the start to gain some ground and get steins out so she can play the zoning game. If she can't get that to work, shes gonna be having a really rough time.

[C0R]

I wrote a huge post elaborating the matchup but it got lost in the server cache :<

Long story short; From my experience this matchup is not in Valkenhayn's favor for several reasons, but I can see why it would seem so to most players without experience against a powerful Mu player.

Defensive play by the Murakumo is going to die for a variety of reasons, similar to how you can't run away and zone Bang. To win this matchup Mu needs to speed up, stay mobile and punch superwolf in the face like her 6a is made out of cryptonite, her offensive capabilities are very strong, but highly underrated, and underplayed. Her damage output is far too high to ignore with hasty and misguided approach.

Therefore, if you can use your approach options to scare her into a "I'm just going to Downback for a bit because I'm afraid in neutral" mindset, there should be no trouble defeating her, but it's important to be conscious of her ability to do the same thing to Valkenhayn, and to never underestimate her better pokes. All in all, most Mu players won't give Valk much trouble due to their habits of playing far too defensively, so you shouldn't need to run much besides standard approach tactics and offense.

[OrionXElite]

punch superwolf in the face like her 6a is made out of cryptonite

Most godlike Matchup description ever :3

But I do get what you're saying. This is a matchup where Mu benefits much more from demonstrating her rushdown capabilities versus staying back and zoning to death like against Tager or Hakumen. Makes sense but I do have one question since I don't know much about Mu at all, whats her average damage output midscreen from 6A and 2C? Is it the same combo either way? I assume 6A CH goes into a late 6B into dash 6A>instant j.2C>dash 2B>5C>6C>Stein>SoD assuming you can't hit the corner? I know 2C confirms into late Jump air dash j.C>j.2C>etc. I just don't remember the potency of her 6A comparatively.

[FlyingVe]

As far as damage goes, don't get CH by her 2C, if she gets you to the corner (likely) you could take ~5.5k. Getting CH by 6A still hurts but is less severe do to proration. However, with the CS2 buffs to 2C, it's more multipurpose than before.

Damage is lower if she can't take you to the corner, but the corner carry is very strong on those combos, so it will happen more often than not. Also, if the Mu player cannot do Haba-can for whatever reason (skill, practice, internet), then damage output goes down alot as she loses damage/meter/corner carry. If you notice it, it could be worth considering.

Also, don't get stuck in a stien oki situation if you can avoid it, Valk has no real answers to that.

My matchup analysis. It's a momentum match, which ever character is on top of the other wins, but Mu has a better neutral and defensive options. Still not awful for the puppy. So I agree with Cor on that one.

[OrionXElite]

Haba-can is the Stein Explosion animation minus the actual Stein right? You do like 6C>Haba-Can>Dash 6A>6B or something like that right? Just for clarifications sake :3

[FlyingVe]

Correct, you use the animation from 214D (explosion) to shorten the recovery of 6C. There's actually alot of specifics involved in using it to combo, so it's common to encounter Mu players who do not utilize it.

It will look like: ~>6C>214D(wiff)>Dash6A>~

[OrionXElite]

Yeah ok I know that then. I dunno why you wouldn't learn it if its useful enough to give you more than just SoD after a 6C But I've never tried it so yeah...

So how troublesome are lasers for Valk while hes in Wolf form? Whats to stop me from double jumping and 5C Dashing over all the Steins if they can't track him soon enough and try and get in her face? Do the lasers cause THAT much trouble that hes literally hindered from Wolf Form or is just like don't do it when you just threw out 2 Steins on her wakeup after say an SoD midscreen?

[FlyingVe]

Haba-can is a little more complicated than that. On top of being very timing specific (a 2F link with a dash I believe), you need to pop the opponent off the wall at a specific height, it won't work off any old 6C hit.

I'm not a valk player, but keep in mind that Mu can jump and special cancel the steins, so a jC, DP, 236A, SOD, etc are all possibilities, so it's not just the lasers. It's kinda like the lasers help her control your position, more so than shoot you. The command laser's threat level varies depending on the setup and stien config. Explosions are utilized in Oki more often in CS2.