[CS1] Top Hat Top Hat Top Hat Top Hat: Top Hat Top Hat (fedora)

[Zeron_X25]

Ummm... go ahead and list them again. Actually... no. Just recall what we argued about. The subject itself. Maybe I can help you then. But let's be gentlemen about it..

Holy shit LOL. Lumin

[Dacidbro]

Well personally, we discussed whether or not Hazama's pressure was strong and simultaneously autopilot. I guess you could give me reasons it isn't?

Reasons I believe it is;

-Extremely large frame advantage for quick moves

-Large payout for successful frame traps (Which operate on inherently safe move, 2C, 6A, or even 3C, cancellable to jabaki or 214D after hit confirm)

-Strong command grab that gives 50 meter if hit in the corner, also strike invulnerable

-No disadvantage for returning to neutral, really allows Hazama to stay safe even when on offense as there's no penalty for backing off

[Fluck]

Dacid, basically what happened was you came into the forums and then it led into an argument about Bang's match-up with Hazama, then you and Dusty agreed to disagree in a very trollish manner, then the trolling kinda blew up with Zeron getting annoyed at you coming into the forum cause of your trollish ways. Not much trolling took place before the matchup argument so I won't comment on who trolled who first (afaik it's neither).

Anyway, then alot of trolling took place between the two of you because you weren't happy with how you were being treated and Zeron was annoyed I guess. I won't comment on that either except to say that you probably won't get an answer for your grievances. Obviously no one is interested in discussing the Hazama-Bang matchup anymore so you don't really have much of a purpose here anymore.

I won't comment on the match-up itself since I'm not nearly experienced enough for it.

EDIT: I'd also like to say I don't think Hazama has the option of backing off. It depends on the spacing but usually that will immediately put him in the mid-range, the area where he's the weakest. If your opponent is cautious you might be able to escape back into zoning but usually I do not think this is a good option.

[Dacidbro]

Things like "You don't really have much of a purpose here anymore" are what I'm talking about. This is a forum based on the Hazama community, and you don't want someone who actually knows what he's talking about here? Or alternatively, just as a fellow player, you'd rather me not be here just because "my topic has expired"?

This board trolled me hard, for a long time, a long time ago, because Zidane made it popular. I didn't hold a grudge, but apparently the board did, for whatever reason. I really don't get it.

Hazama absolutely has the option of backing off, and all of the strong Hazama's do so successfully, frequently. Using his jump cancel on 5B, 5C, and 2C, or intelligent jabaki, all let him get away, and he instantly can control the empty space with his chains before the opponent can move, comparative to his commitment. If you REALLY want to get far, you can IAD backwards from any jump cancel and use any chain pull you want with any followup, and it can't be interrupted.

[kid viper]

Well personally, we discussed whether or not Hazama's pressure was strong and simultaneously autopilot. I guess you could give me reasons it isn't?

Reasons I believe it is;

-Extremely large frame advantage for quick moves

-Large payout for successful frame traps (Which operate on inherently safe move, 2C, 6A, or even 3C, cancellable to jabaki or 214D after hit confirm)

-Strong command grab that gives 50 meter if hit in the corner, also strike invulnerable

-No disadvantage for returning to neutral, really allows Hazama to stay safe even when on offense as there's no penalty for backing off

-what quick moves have "extremely large frame advantages"

-6a not safe and you're not using this move to frame trap, 3c > jabaki gets no heavy payout unless in corner, 214d only off of 5c ch or 3c ch, of which only 3c is confirmable.

not understanding some of the stuff you're saying :\

[Zeron_X25]

ok. I'll try. I argued that his pressure is strong but not autopilot (At least that's what I remember saying)

1- 2A is +1 and 5B is +2. You're right on that. I wouldn't call this extremely large or make this a reason for him being autopilot. Valkenhayn's 2A is +1 and his 6B is +6. You can gatling 2A into 6B and they are both wolf cancelable. So I don't see how Hazama's only two "quick" + moves are such bullshit material. Keep in mind this still isn't saying he's autopilot. Hazama need to keep his pressure varied and use chains because his pressure is actually very easy to see through (Of course that requires knowledge of the character and knowing how to counter his bullshit). In my experience, when I play Hazama players of different level (Not the highest but I've played very great Hazama players when I played Ragna and sometimes Hazama mirrors), their pressure is a bit easy to see through and I don't usually get hit in their blockstrings. I'm trying to tell you that his pressure isn't as autopilot as someone like Jin. But that is part of what we call matchup experience. That means it's an opinion and it stems from your experience.

2- If you do successfully frametrap, say goodbye to uhhh... 2/3 of your life. So yeah. You're right on that and I never said you aren't. His massive 8k combos aren't as easy or autopilot as you might think. They actually take some execution (Not Arakune-like but still). btw you shouldn't really get hit by 2C frametrap I dunno why you would... I know I never did. Again, Hazama's frametraps are easy to see coming but nevertheless they hurt like a bitch.

3-

His command grab is bullshit.

'nough said I believe.

4- Can't really comment on that one. I dunno. Maybe you're right but I don't see this as being relevant to pressure (maybe it is but I can't see it). Lambda can get out easily too you know...

So uhhh... that's my take on it.

[Dusty]

The things you guys say off hand, the implications are astounding. Dusty implies that I'm so stupid I can't even figure out how to play neutral game (Whiffing 5B like an idiot, as though playing footsies with one of the top players in the world is somehow easy), you imply that somehow I have a complex over being right when in reality I'm just waiting for a reasonable argument (You might remember that even though the things BO said were grossly exaggerated and insulting, I still recognized the merits of what he said)

I never said playing footsies with Satoshi was easy bro and I never said you were to stupid to play neutral game, I apologize if you took great offense to my joking comments. Dacidbro stop being so butt hurt. :3

Well personally, we discussed whether or not Hazama's pressure was strong and simultaneously autopilot. I guess you could give me reasons it isn't?

Reasons I believe it is;

-Extremely large frame advantage for quick moves

-Large payout for successful frame traps (Which operate on inherently safe move, 2C, 6A, or even 3C, cancellable to jabaki or 214D after hit confirm)

-Strong command grab that gives 50 meter if hit in the corner, also strike invulnerable

-No disadvantage for returning to neutral, really allows Hazama to stay safe even when on offense as there's no penalty for backing off

It's only as strong as you let it be as I posted a few pages back.

-The frame advantage is large because his only long reaching moves are 3C and 2B which hardly give any reward unless CH. If his normals did not give any frame advantage they would be very horrible and short ranged normals.

- Alot of character's get a huge payout for frame trapping, although Hazama has the best reward with 50 meter. Gotta learn that smart mash.

-Command grab is strong and maybe borderline broken. I think it was necessary for CS1 Hazama as his mixup was poor, but in CS2 it's overkill as his reward for getting a low or you being hit for trying to jump out of command grab is way to high with 50 meter.

-There are hardly any character's that have a penalty for backing off if any at all.

His pressure is strong but defiantly not auto pilot but CAN be run that way if you let him.

[Dacidbro]

His 2A is +1 and easily staggerable, which is one of the only 2A's in the game with frame advantage.

His 5B is +2

6B is +3

Jabaki is +1

214D~A is +2

You really don't see the frame advantage? Those are better than almost any character, especially considering most of them are very fast start up.

6A is not safe on IB, but full spaced 6A without IB is safe, which is very good for an overhead like that since it does frame trap (Like the way Satoshi frame trapped with Makoto full space 2A 6B, only less powerful and more situational because it is disadvantage if blocked) and you can easily confirm either counter hit to normals or normal hit to super.

3C CH is visually confirmable to either jabaki or 214D~C, you just have to be quick.

[ZeroRaider]

I never said playing footsies with Satoshi was easy bro and I never said you were to stupid to play neutral game, I apologize if you took great offense to my joking comments. Dacidbro stop being so butt hurt. :3

It's only as strong as you let it be as I posted a few pages back.

-The frame advantage is large because his only long reaching moves are 3C and 2B which hardly give any reward unless CH. If his normals did not give any frame advantage they would be very horrible and short ranged normals.

- Alot of character's get a huge payout for frame trapping, although Hazama has the best reward with 50 meter. Gotta learn that smart mash.

-Command grab is strong and maybe borderline broken. I think it was necessary for CS1 Hazama as his mixup was poor, but in CS2 it's overkill as his reward for getting a low or you being hit for trying to jump out of command grab is way to high with 50 meter.

-There are hardly any character's that have a penalty for backing off if any at all.

His pressure is strong but defiantly not auto pilot but CAN be run that way if you let him.

You ninja'd me Dusty, still better with the words I see. xD

His 2A is +1 and easily staggerable, which is one of the only 2A's in the game with frame advantage.

His 5B is +2

6B is +3

Jabaki is +1

214D~A is +5(no no, its 2+, 5+ after 25 frame pause)

You really don't see the frame advantage? Those are better than almost any character, especially considering most of them are very fast start up.

6A is not safe on IB, but full spaced 6A without IB is safe, which is very good for an overhead like that since it does frame trap (Like the way Satoshi frame trapped with Makoto full space 2A 6B, only less powerful and more situational because it is disadvantage if blocked) and you can easily confirm either counter hit to normals or normal hit to super.

3C CH is visually confirmable to either jabaki or 214D~C, you just have to be quick.

I'm okay with this.

[Zeron_X25]

Ressenga is plus 2 not 5. That's Lv.2 Rassenga. Don't tell me you're reaction is THAT bad...

[Dacidbro]

ok. I'll try. I argued that his pressure is strong but not autopilot (At least that's what I remember saying)

1- 2A is +1 and 5B is +2. You're right on that. I wouldn't call this extremely large or make this a reason for him being autopilot. Valkenhayn's 2A is +1 and his 6B is +6. You can gatling 2A into 6B and they are both wolf cancelable. So I don't see how Hazama's only two "quick" + moves are such bullshit material. Keep in mind this still isn't saying he's autopilot. Hazama need to keep his pressure varied and use chains because his pressure is actually very easy to see through (Of course that requires knowledge of the character and knowing how to counter his bullshit). In my experience, when I play Hazama players of different level (Not the highest but I've played very great Hazama players when I played Ragna and sometimes Hazama mirrors), their pressure is a bit easy to see through and I don't usually get hit in their blockstrings. I'm trying to tell you that his pressure isn't as autopilot as someone like Jin. But that is part of what we call matchup experience. That means it's an opinion and it stems from your experience.

2- If you do successfully frametrap, say goodbye to uhhh... 2/3 of your life. So yeah. You're right on that and I never said you aren't. His massive 8k combos aren't as easy or autopilot as you might think. They actually take some execution (Not Arakune-like but still). btw you shouldn't really get hit by 2C frametrap I dunno why you would... I know I never did. Again, Hazama's frametraps are easy to see coming but nevertheless they hurt like a bitch.

3- 'nough said I believe.

4- Can't really comment on that one. I dunno. Maybe you're right but I don't see this as being relevant to pressure (maybe it is but I can't see it). Lambda can get out easily too you know...

So uhhh... that's my take on it.

1 - Valkenhayn's dash is not normal cancellable, so for him to have such ludicrous frame advantage is necessary. Hazama, unlike valkenhayn, can also reset his distances with d2A, something Valkenhayn can't do. The dash normals let him use extremely auto pilot pressure, since most options are very very safe, the definition of autopilot.

If Haz's pressure is see-through, I think you need to play stronger opponents, no offense intended. I see extremely strong players get opened up by Hazama constantly, through safe options.

2 - But his frame traps are mostly safe, so it's still autopilot.

3 - yeah x_x

4 - Safety makes the need to actually do something about it on defense relevant. Because he's so safe and can fade off, people push buttons and get frame trapped. Hazama has to personally make very few reads, and stays safe.

Good point on ressenga, my fault, skimmed the data. +2 is still good.

Dusty; Characters aren't inherently punished for backing off, but many start "losing" as soon as they do. Such as Ragna, where being at neutral is disadvantageous. To be at advantage against most of the cast despite taking a safe route out and returning to neutral is a huge advantage, and lets him play even safer.

[Guymam]

Alright that's it. Dacid is right. Okay? He is correct on some points. You all need to stop treating him like absolute shit whenever he says anything. He lost to Satoshi, yes. So did a ton of other good players that day. Do you know why? Satoshi was really good. Lots of people whiffed things. That was one of Satoshi's strongest points, recognizing whiffs and smacking their shit for it. His spacing and understanding of matchups was intense. Because Japan gives a fuck about that game, and plays it, and has an arcade scene. Here in SoCal we have gatherings occasionally. Other places have it slightly better, others have it worse. Satoshi won Revelations. In a sound fashion too. Satoshi sat on stream and took on challengers one at a time, challengers that included Dacidbro, LK, Huey, Omni, and more. He beat a lot of people. Stop bringing that up like he lost to a guy who mashes buttons with his face. Everyone there, including myself, could have played better.

I get if you blow up Dacidbro for saying something really far fetched, but to do it to him whenever he says anything is just in poor taste. Even Zidane, the God of trolling Dacid, is staying out of this one. If you honestly believe he is wrong, bring your facts and data, and provide your points.

GODDAMMIT I LET MYSELF GET CARRIED AWAY INTO THIS.

[Dusty]

His 2A is +1 and easily staggerable, which is one of the only 2A's in the game with frame advantage.

His 5B is +2

6B is +3

Jabaki is +1

214D~A is +5

You really don't see the frame advantage? Those are better than almost any character, especially considering most of them are very fast start up.

2A is +1 and staggerable yes, but it has alot of push back. Alot character has some weird shit going on with their normals. Litchi's 2A is jump cancelable, bangs is a low, and Hakumen has frame advantage up the butthole just to name a few.

Jabaki has too much push back to be used as effectively as you think, if you do 2A>5B Jabaki the opponent will be pushed too far to continue pressure they can just jump out.

[Dacidbro]

Jabaki is just his "Oh I fucked up, time to make this safe" move. It makes his frame traps all safe.

Yeah like I said, I missed when skimming the frame data, and already corrected 214D~A

Thanks guymam . And to make your point a little better, he actually agreed with me and said I was right, deal with it.

[Zeron_X25]

1- Dash 2A is mash outable. So uhh... there goes that argument.

2- ... they're not that safe and you don't frametrap with 6A... Jabaki leaves you mid range where you don't wanna be and ends any and all pressure that you had going, essentially bringing back the game to neutral instead of cracking them up under Hazama's "bullshit autopilot" pressure.

3- -

4- It's not that easy to get away with Hazama. It was in CS1. In CS2, he got snake stock nerf.

[kid viper]

His 2A is +1 and easily staggerable, which is one of the only 2A's in the game with frame advantage.

His 5B is +2

6B is +3

Jabaki is +1

214D~A is +5

You really don't see the frame advantage? Those are better than almost any character, especially considering most of them are very fast start up.

6A is not safe on IB, but full spaced 6A without IB is safe, which is very good for an overhead like that since it does frame trap (Like the way Satoshi frame trapped with Makoto full space 2A 6B, only less powerful and more situational because it is disadvantage if blocked) and you can easily confirm either counter hit to normals or normal hit to super.

3C CH is visually confirmable to either jabaki or 214D~C, you just have to be quick.

you stated his FAST normals are heavy advantage. +1 or +2 is NOT heavy advantage. his strongest advantage is only off 6b or lvl 2 ressenga. both of which are 25f and 44f startup respectively.

makoto 6b and hazama 6a are two completely different overheads with 2 different uses. you don't use hazama 6a to frame trap. hazama 6a is not even special cancellable nor can it be gatlinged into anything. that move only serves for one purpose. why the hell would you frame trap with 6a at MAX RANGE when you can just 5B or 5C

arguments still stand.

[ZeroRaider]

Gawddammit... Why you guys trying so hard to put him on blast today.

He's doesn't know EVERYTHING about Haz. Well DERP.

That what he probably originally came for, to know more, not a "whos right about what, anyway?" game. (not sure though)

I thought we could be done with all this, its already gotten old.

I have to side with Dacid on this night.

[Zeron_X25]

Houston, we have reinforcements.

[Dacidbro]

1 d2A is not mash outable. It's a 3 frame window if staggered from 6B, 4 frame window if staggered from 5B or 214D~A, 5 frame if staggered from 2A. That gives him a ton of options, all of which set up conditioning for safe frame traps which lead to massive damage.

2 They are that safe (because of jabaki, which is -2 even if your opponent instant blocks it, not even punishable), and you can frame trap with 6A it's just situational (Strong hazama players do so, especially when they have meter to either confirm to huge damage with meter back, hit confirm with normals on CH or Rapid to continue pressure on block). Jabaki is either "Im making this safe now, pressure's over, back to neutral" or "I'm using this REALLY close, and it's +1 pressure time" it is a multi-faceted move.

4 the snake nerf hurts, but you can still do it. Usually you don't need to use snakes, just jump cancel IAD Back is pretty safe if you don't overuse it, and you can condition your opponents to try to rush in on you for it and make them pay for it. It's all conditioning.

[Zeron_X25]

Please tell us of these strong Hazama players that you seem to be playing against. Please let us know. It sounds like you've beaten Buppa and Noze twice over.

Dude... you are SO wrong about point 1 and 2. Makes me really sad that you actually believe in these.

[Dacidbro]

you stated his FAST normals are heavy advantage. +1 or +2 is NOT heavy advantage. his strongest advantage is only off 6b or lvl 2 ressenga. both of which are 25f and 44f startup respectively.

makoto 6b and hazama 6a are two completely different overheads with 2 different uses. you don't use hazama 6a to frame trap. hazama 6a is not even special cancellable nor can it be gatlinged into anything. that move only serves for one purpose. why the hell would you frame trap with 6a at MAX RANGE when you can just 5B or 5C

arguments still stand.

+1 on a flutter crouch jab IS heavy advantage. +2 on a normal as universally applicable as 5B is heavy, too.

Like I said, 6A is situational, but very strong. When using it as an overhead, it simultaneously frame traps. Do you get it? When you have meter, you just determine what actually happened and react accordingly. I know that Makoto's 6B is broken as hell, but it doesn't mean that Hazama's 6A does not do similar things.

Zeron, I'm referencing Japanese Hazama. I don't play any strong Hazama.

Also, I explained why you were wrong in the post that you say I'm wrong about. Why am I not correct?

[Zeron_X25]

+1 on a flutter crouch jab IS heavy advantage. +2 on a normal as universally applicable as 5B is heavy, too.

Like I said, 6A is situational, but very strong. When using it as an overhead, it simultaneously frame traps. Do you get it? When you have meter, you just determine what actually happened and react accordingly. I know that Makoto's 6B is broken as hell, but it doesn't mean that Hazama's 6A does not do similar things.

Zeron, I'm referencing Japanese Hazama. I don't play any strong Hazama.

Also, I explained why you were wrong in the post that you say I'm wrong about. Why am I not correct?

I don't get it. You're telling me that watching videos of Japanese players is the same as you actually experiencing the matchup first-hand? Shit makes no sense. You can't just say it's not mashable because they don't do it in vids. Jabaki is punishable by an opponent that knows what to do. You don't seem to get these things though. So I'll leave it at that.

Edit: Just read the last part of your post that you edited in. Ummm... you can't frametrap with 6A. Makoto 5A is +2. Hakumen 5A is +3, 2A +1, 2B +2 and 6A +3... you're just giving two moves that are slight advantages and saying they make him autopilot. Good arguments...

[Dacidbro]

I'm saying players even better than myself, a top player in America, get opened up by Hazama all the time. Therefore, his pressure is strong and obviously works. Does that make sense?

There's a reason they don't mash, you know.

Jabaki is -2 on IB. That's disadvantage at worst, you can't be punished.

EDIT: Your new edit:

5A whiffs crouching, not the same. Hazama has one of the only advantaged 2A's in the entire game, most aren't even even. Also, every reference to Hakumen is irrelevant, since he has very few gatlings. As a result, he needs universal frame advantage just to keep up. Also, again, he can't cancel his dash to normals, so he can't continue his pressure well.

By the way, cut out the snide remarks. Every argument I've made so far is extremely well grounded and thoroughly explained. It doesn't take insults to make a point.

[Fluck]

Things like "You don't really have much of a purpose here anymore" are what I'm talking about. This is a forum based on the Hazama community, and you don't want someone who actually knows what he's talking about here? Or alternatively, just as a fellow player, you'd rather me not be here just because "my topic has expired"?

Well, I said that because there was nothing left to discuss in my opinion. Nobody wanted to discuss the Bang match-up. Of course I think it's fine that you're here now since we're back to the argument of Hazama's pressure.

I won't argue about the backing off part cause it can only be substantiated via 1) Actual play or 2) Videos and I can't back up my point with either (nor am I convinced that I am correct).

[Dacidbro]

Everything that I've argued has been shown time and time again in match videos, so if you needed a reference you can watch most matches on Game-ACHO