[CS1] Top Hat Top Hat Top Hat Top Hat: Top Hat Top Hat (fedora)

[Fluck]

When you IB, you become susceptible to more frame traps. Yes, IB is a good answer, but saying IB is a good answer is like saying "You should have no trouble with Makoto or Jin's mix because certain normals are chokepoints on IB"

Theoretically, yes, but it's deeper than that. All of the gatlings after 5B gain a greater potency for safe frame traps, and if you let it go and empty 2B you can catch people trying to use your -1 against you.

And again, really, if you IB extremely well, it does significantly reduce the potency of his pressure, like any character, and is very necessary to do. It's a good point to bring up.

Sure, I agree with this. Just a minor point: surely you cannot react and choose an option based on whether or not 5B is IBed? For example you do 5B (IBed) dash 2A. I don't think you can stop yourself from doing dash 2A if you saw the 5B IBed.

P.S. Being civilized is free to me

[Dacidbro]

Yes, you can react to IB. I personally do so often, and Satoshi clearly did as well.

Because most of the offensive options have upwards of 15-18 frames stun, and many followups are 10-15 frames start up, you can confirm the white flash and gatling to something that will still maintain a 4-8frames available to act window, and score a counter hit if mashed. It's mostly effective when your opponent is stuck out of jab range, so they don't have a 5-6f option.

[Zeron_X25]

Well... the thing is that Dacidbro can't tell the difference between numbers and theoretics and actual play. He assumes something being plus means it's safe and the player gets paid for it 24/7. That's not the case. So I suggest you play strong Hazamas and continue getting blown up by this bullshit pressure of his.

OR you could play Hazama yourself and put this autopilot pressure to good use.

[Dacidbro]

Are you fucking kidding me? I constantly place in tournaments. Obviously I know the difference between theoretics and actual play.

STOP insulting me, and make points instead.

In 13 hours of practicing Hazama without real matches, I was beating players like 2gig about 25-30% of the time. And I wasn't even hitting successful combos.

[Zeron_X25]

You call that an insult? I'm merely observing because you're so stuck on numbers that you forget actual play matters. I'm telling you to either play Hazama or play against good ones. Because honestly, I don't think you know the matchup.

[Dacidbro]

So you would take every intelligent point I've made so far that have only been somewhat countered (Kidviper's points were very intelligent but only halfway refuted what I had stated, and did not invalidate the strength of the pressure, and Fluck mentioned IB, which leads to conditioning tricks in itself) and throw it out, just because I don't yet personally play the character well?

You're something else dude.

[Zeron_X25]

In 13 hours of practicing Hazama without real matches, I was beating players like 2gig about 25-30% of the time. And I wasn't even hitting successful combos.

That's because you're fundamentals are good. Not necessarily Hazama being an easy character.

[Dacidbro]

I give up, there's no convincing you. You would take absolutely anything except admitting my points are valid, even if the conclusion isn't supported by anything.

For the argument itself, another reason IB can backfire;

If 2A is IB'd a gatling'd 2A or 5B is a frame trap

IB'd 5B frame traps to C's

Any C can lead to safety

So the longer you just continue not mixing them up, the more opportunities you give your opponent to frame trap themselves. Characters with reversals are much less susceptible, but if a reversal hits the reward is generally low, and your reward for baiting it is high.

A similar concept is the reason Bang still has hope, he has ways to just keep extending his pressure, with constant frame traps or 'on-IB' frame traps.

[Zeron_X25]

Yeah. I believe this is a great way to stop this. I'm an arrogant prick who won't listen to reason. Happy now? Great. Now you got nothing to post in this thread about. Goodbye :3

(You're last post was so filled with irony... there's obviously no convincing you either because you believe you have irrefutable arguments. You can't argue with someone with a mindset like that)

[Dacidbro]

Just because they haven't been refuted yet doesn't mean they're irrefutable. You can keep trying. I don't think you'll succeed though, because the only thing I'm arguing here has been proven by countless hundreds of hours of Japanese Hazama footage.

Hazama's pressure is strong (Not the strongest, but strong) and autopilot (Very few physical reads or call outs)

[Zeron_X25]

Well that's the thing. You're just saying they're backed up by footage. Then when we talk about the giant holes in his pressure, you talk about frametraps. Then you talk about Jabaki making stuff safe. Then you tie it all up by showing Japanese footage?

Make it to the 100th page and we've accomplished something great.

[Dacidbro]

Yeah, I'm stating the exact options that counter what is being stated as answers. Not that the answers never work, just that he does have solutions for every "answer", which is what makes pressure strong. Not to mention, when he throws certain frame traps his reward is staggering, and once he hits 50 meter his reward for anything is staggering, which means the more you struggle against his pressure the higher the reward gets for him. But if you're complacent, he has a command grab, and catches many jump outs for free just with his staggers either via literally catching the start up or by hitting AUB (And a correctly confirmed AUB is sometimes pretty strong damage)

[huey253]

i actually don't place in tourneys (sad life) but i have some experience playing As and againist multiple hazamas.

hazama's pressure is very scary in this game but i don't think its close to makoto/staffless litchi.

i don't think it is a fair argument to say that hazama has one of the few plus on block 2As because there are characters like noel who have plus on block 5as that you can also use in the same manor.

hazama's pressure does get weakened quiet a bit if you use Barrier Defense. just DONT barrier his stance overhead, and ib/block instead. this usually results in getting the advantage/free backdash/free jump out.

hazama's 6B isn't very scary outside of the corner imo, because of its speed. it is hard to get people to respect you enough unless you have them cornered so that you can get them to block/get hit by 6B rather than jump/mash out.

jabaki is only +1. hazama doesn't actually get free pressure after this because of the pushback (especially because of barrier)

don't mash out of hazama's pressure, just barrier him out. he doesn't have some sneaky frame traps.

don't get touched when he has meter (sorry, can't help you there)

command grab is super good, but everybody knows that.

hazama actually does lose if you decide to back off and stay midrange, if you decide to either zone or rush down, then he is much more effective as a character.

so i dissagree with both of you guys for the most part

:3

[Dacidbro]

I would easily agree stafless litchi and Makoto have much, much stronger pressure.

Haz has one of the few staggerable jab pressures that is advantage even to itself, is I guess the point I wanted to make. And universally, every character with one of these is a top character (Litchi, Hazama, Noel, and Tsubaki's +2 2A has helped her become a very strong character along with her other recent buffs). Good point though, there are other characters with similar tools, and their pressure is also strong.

Barrier defense is a good tip, thanks. Any tips on exactly how to use it? The last thing I want to do is give him even more frame advantage without pushing him far enough. I would guess barrier would weaken his ability to continue gatling-ing, but strengthen his staggers/pressure-resets, so it seems like it needs to be used responsibly.

Haz's 6B is decent when well spaced. If you run 5B 6B your opponent should only have 7 frames window, which nearly guarantees a frame trap or blocked 6B when spaced well. But you're right, it can be difficult to apply 6B.

Jabaki is only +1, meaning you can use it to make things safe OR use it very point blank and continue your pressure. I've seen a few Hazama's use it in the corner as meaty, to both catch a mash and continue pressure otherwise, it's a decent choice rarely.

I agree that mid range is good against Hazama, but even then his options aren't bad. His pokes are very committing though.

Huey, do you have any footage of you playing against Hazama? I would certainly like to see your perspectives in action, because I know you are very talented on defense.

Worst case I guess we'll cover it at EVO

[huey253]

jabaki is good if you have them in the corner for reseting pressure, but you have to be really close like you said. it isn't a real big deal that he can end his pressure safely.

his ground normals aren't exactly made for poking (other than 2B) so its not like he is going to outpoke characters like ragna/bang when he does jabaki at longer ranges.

barrier his 2A/5B/2B and just instant block everything else. he should be negative if you can do this properly. for characters like hazama, they usually have to take some kind of risk to completely reset their pressure, aka stance overhead.

Stance overhead IS reactable to, but you have to be on the ball for it. he isn't going to use it unless he gets pushed out to a distance where he has to. that is when you either decide to interrupt or jump or whatever. (for bang, you can just 5D it if you see it coming)

i think hazama's 6B is very good, but it requires some conditioning for it to become effective. I strongly dissagree with Hazama's pressure being completely autopilot though.

EDIT: no footage vs hazama

[Dacidbro]

Yeah, his 2B is pretty good for it though, and 5C and 2C are both nice anti airs.

I'll try the barrier stuff. Trusting you on that one, cause I have no one to try it against before EVO, but it sounds legit.

Stance overhead is reactable to if you're godlike. You have some of the best reactions to overheads I've seen, so I can't really comment there. Bang's guardpoints are certainly useful in this matchup, although fairly risky in many contexts.

I guess we have different definitions of autopilot. I feel like it's very very easy for Hazama to simultaneously remain safe, get rewarded and also condition opponents with very little personal thought or commitment.

[ZeroRaider]

Congrats on 100 pages people...(I wish I could really mean this..)

My av I think sums up my thoughts of whats happened today..

[Dusty]

Is this over yet? Can we talk about something useful to the forums now? or is it not safe to come back yet?

[huey253]

Yeah, his 2B is pretty good for it though, and 5C and 2C are both nice anti airs.

I'll try the barrier stuff. Trusting you on that one, cause I have no one to try it against before EVO, but it sounds legit.

Stance overhead is reactable to if you're godlike. You have some of the best reactions to overheads I've seen, so I can't really comment there. Bang's guardpoints are certainly useful in this matchup, although fairly risky in many contexts.

I guess we have different definitions of autopilot. I feel like it's very very easy for Hazama to simultaneously remain safe, get rewarded and also condition opponents with very little personal thought or commitment.

you know that if hazama is going to mindlessly reset their pressure, all you need to do is not block the command overhead right? well, the matter of the fact is, without meter, all you really need to look out for is exactly that. 5D's autoguard starts on frame 3, so its not mission impossible to do so. this is how you deal the more autopilot methods of reseting pressure.

5C is situationally good, but 5A and 2C are both very good anti airs.

[Dacidbro]

Oh, I don't think that the stance overhead is what makes it autopilot. It's a great addition, but what makes it autopilot to me is the safety and ability to fade off.

You're right, his 5A is great AA, better than 5C. Good call.

[huey253]

honestly alot of the hazama players here have been trying to explain this but i think i just did it better with practical examples.

i think you are overexaggerating how good hazama's pressure is.

but thats from my view

[ZeroRaider]

Is this over yet? Can we talk about something useful to the forums now? or is it not safe to come back yet?

I'm okay with this idea. Its so brilliant.

honestly alot of the hazama players here have been trying to explain this but i think i just did it better with practical examples.

i think you are overexaggerating how good hazama's pressure is.

but thats from my view

Did you know you are my hero?

[Dacidbro]

honestly alot of the hazama players here have been trying to explain this but i think i just did it better with practical examples.

i think you are overexaggerating how good hazama's pressure is.

but thats from my view

But what they were saying isn't anything like what you just said. You said some good examples of how to work against the pressure, without saying it wasn't extremely strong (And said it was "terrifying" yourself), and I personally believe the reason you are not afraid of it is because you have some of the best defense I've seen, which makes it more difficult for Hazama's to open you up autopilot. Wuku still plays Haz, doesn't he? I would really really like to see you two play.

[ZeroRaider]

I think both sides got their stuff hazy amongst the later insults and trolling... (mostly on the haz forum siiide.)

I feel very assholeish on myself for just watching than trying to put a little more effort to correct some of this..

[Dacidbro]

I wasn't insulting anyone but Whiteboywilly, when it was really a debate. And most of my points went untouched. Kidviper made some good points and Huey gave me some really good information that I didn't know before, but I don't think a single person debated Hazama's pressure isn't strong and certainly no one proved his pressure isn't autopilot (although I do believe Huey a good bit more, by the way he presented his points, so I'm not quite as stoic about it as before). But hey, I got some really good info, so thanks guys.