The process of learning a character (BB-oriented, but also a general question)

[Lord Knight]

Not true.

Every character has their own unique optimal hitconfirms, be it for meter gain/damage or both. Some of them can be situational, dependent on what hit you started with, counter hit, fatal counter, screen positioning, etc.

Although someone could realize that they have to hitconfirm better and not autopilot, it is something that goes into the character.

[Chozo003]

Beginner

1. Learn basic combos

2. Learn what moves your character likes to use most often

3. Learn to combo off those moves

4. Learn basic pressure

Intermediate

1. Learn hardest variations of basic combos

2. Learn situational combos

3. Absorb the concept of spacing

4. Improve pressure

5. Learn matchups, the ones you'll play the most (all the common characters or whoever your friends use)

6. Improve hitconfirm

Advanced

1.Master matchups

My process was laughably different than this one... I feel like a scrub now, lol. Basically I did this:

1. Learn characters moveset in-depth

2. Learn really short, easy combos (no BNBs)

3. Learn to hitconfirm those combos really well

4. Learn to pressure, zone, block

5. Learn spacing, how to use the entirety of my character's moveset effectively

6. Learn a few more short combos (still no BNBs =[ ) and how to hit confirm them/go into them from common attacks

I still haven't learned BNBs, which is what I'm trying to do now (getting a stick soon, so that may help). For the most part I survive on basics... I did learn a few matchup specifics (mostly just the couple of characters used by my friends), but nothing too in-depth. Now that I have a local to go to I hope to drastically improve my character specific matchups, improve my fundamentals through practice, and learn to apply BNBs once I know them in actual matches.

[mAc Chaos]

That's... kind of the point of this thread? This game only came out about 4 days ago here and I'm just saying that moving beyond just randomly mashing to actually trying to learn stuff seems kind of hard to grasp when some moron just bashing away mindlessly will win against my practice and knowledge of the technical elements.

I could have beaten his Noel if I'd picked Ragna or Noel and just button mashed too. All this technical stuff like blockstrings would be for nothing against some idiot just rushing you down and mashing shit. Trying to predict what he's going to do next? Forget it. He doesn't know what he's going to do next. My knowledge of the technicalities of the game are far higher than this other guy's - BB and fighting games in general - but it's applying that knowledge that I have a problem with.

While button mashing isn't rewarded as much in games like SSFIV, I did notice that picking Ryu and Ken and just acting like a kid playing SFII (i.e. spam SRKs, jumping hurricane kicks for no reason) was a lot more successful online than picking someone like Makoto and trying to use them thoughtfully.

If you only got the game four days ago, then there is no way you're going to be that different from your friend. You're expecting to get too good too fast. It took my friends months before they knew what they were doing. Just play and get experience. If you're getting beat by someone doing random stuff then it just means you haven't developed your capabilities enough to punish them to make them not want to do it. Also if you're fighting someone who just flails around then there's no point in trying for more advanced things like mixup as mixup only works by fooling the player into thinking you're doing option X instead of Z. But you can't fool them if they're not even looking for what you're going to do or have no idea what you can do. Mixup is only something that comes in at more advanced levels of play.

At your level you just want to punish unsafe moves and learn what goes into what, what to look out for, that kind of thing.

[deadsnake]

and I thought u were already playing BB like...at least 1 or 2 months ^^;;

if 4 days then I believe u just have to go through the long path of learning a character from the basic.. that's just the way it is and how things will work out

[Kinezumi]

Yeah, I don't want to give the impression I've been playing it since it came out in America (or even since CT came out here in Britain) but at the same time I've had a lot more practice at fighting games in general than my friends. Anyway, thanks for all your answers so far. They've been really helpful since I now feel a lot more inspired and comfortable moving forwards with practising.

[Erorrless]

So

After 3 hours of tutorial, some versus, online, challenge i love it. sure i dont combo and all that but for now im happy with my special imputs! In tekken i managed to do what i want 75% being P1 and about 40% being P2. In BBCS i do 80% of the basic stuff i want (specials, attacks, no combos yet) at the P1 slot, and 70% in the P2 slot. this surprised me and its my only bright point atm. Timing is getting better with the passing hours. I have adopted this mindset- get the feeling of the basics right, timing, connecting, stringing. I want to be able to do the simple stuff without even thinking before moving on. A good example is how difficult it was for me to use the preplay controls in madden the first month. i had a small sheet of paper where i drew all the different coverages and took peeks at it till my hands were changing my play not my mind. No wat im sayin?

Another big surprise was how little lag there is online!! and how many ppl are playing it!

also- how big is the install, and how much faster is the loading?

Any tips are appreciated.

[PpPpPaniK]

Beginner

1. Learn basic combos

2. Learn what moves your character likes to use most often

3. Learn to combo off those moves

4. Learn basic pressure

Intermediate

1. Learn hardest variations of basic combos

2. Learn situational combos

3. Absorb the concept of spacing

4. Improve pressure

5. Learn matchups, the ones you'll play the most (all the common characters or whoever your friends use)

6. Improve hitconfirm

Advanced

1.Master matchups

I wish that i could apply this to me but i hink i may be rushing my learning. I picked up BB when it was 1st released and picked up litchi and tager, but i stop playing. Ive JUST got into BBCS and its extremel hard to learn the characters or the game. I guess i dont no how to learn, is what is really the problem. I knew 1 combo with old litchi and appled it to CS, but ive learned that there are WAY better combos than what i do. This might be a funny question but how do you learn a combo?! For me its 100% easy to go into training mode and for example, learn carls clap trap, only because i thought of it. But when i go to a combo thread and try to learn the combos some else has created, it gets really hard. Ive spent a while trying to get litchis combos down to muscle memory but, i always mess up or something.

So i guess what i would be asking is, for someone like me who doesnt even know all the moves, and gameplay mechanics yet,

should i learn the combos 1st, or should i just go fight to get more comfortable with the character? because right now im just jumping around and it seems so hard to learn someone

ALSO Who is the easiest fighter to learn? (if there is)

[Delrian]

So i guess what i would be asking is, for someone like me who doesnt even know all the moves, and gameplay mechanics yet,

should i learn the combos 1st, or should i just go fight to get more comfortable with the character? because right now im just jumping around and it seems so hard to learn someone

Whether you go fight real people or just mess around in training mode, get to know your moveset. It might help with learning combos you find on dustloop, but learning the characters' moves was my first step in learning back in CT. I'm a visual learner so learning what these moves look like helped me to visualize the combo.

Combos is where you earn damage, but if you can't start the combo, you're not going to win any fights, so by that logic you should get familiar with your character first. Best to find one or two simple combos that you can rely on when you need them.

[Mr_Kzimir]

Reading this thread remind me myself.

I always wondered how do you get off auto pilot ?

[TheGreatReptar]

Reading this thread remind me myself.

I always wondered how do you get off auto pilot ?

Make conscious decisions.

[RokudaimeYami]

Yeah that is the problem, when I do make conscious decisions i do worse that when i mash the easiest combos out there....

[Pheenix]

Here is my strategy:

1. Learn the mechanics of the game. Don't worry about how to use them, just understand them.

2. Learn your moves, including normals, one by one. By that, I mean that you must learn until subconscious what will happen with each button press. Don't worry about knowing the correct use of the moves yet, just know all the moveset, and a faint idea of their range, speed, etc. by heart. Shouldn't take too long.

3. Now it gets fun! Learn universal offense. By universal, I mean everything that is not match-up specific. This is for all situations were you are in control, and your opponent is reacting. Since you are in control, you have freedom of choice, which is why I recommend learning offense before defense. Learn your characters mix-up, general wake-up, etc. Everything that hardly changes from situation to situation, or character to character. Now we are talking mastery, not just learning. This will take a while. Remember, we are only talking things that are largely mechanical, that don't require you to think ahead or improvise.

4. With the above, learn and master the appropriate combos that the prior-mastered strategies will let you land. Will take long.

5. Universal defense. Learn how to "generally" deal with fireballs, zoning, command grabs etc. This is when you are reaction to a controlling opponent. This is learning, not mastery. Mastery will come when we start focusing on match-ups. Since it is not mastery, it should take less time than 3.

6. Match-ups and specific situations: this is the biggest and arguably never-ending step. Learn the match-ups, and specific in-game situations, starting at the most common and working deeper and deeper. By that, I mean that you should start off learning how to counter character-specific bnb for everyone and then move deeper, instead of isolating a character and trying to master fighting them at once.

This is every specific situation the game may present. How to react to every single conceivable situation, frame by frame. Both with character specific moves or system moves such as advancing guard or what have you.

6. Putting it all together: a more abstract, not really conscious step, mainly about having a gameplan. With your new knowledge, you should know before the game has even begun whether you will be aiming for keeping your opponent on the ground, or staying away from them, or etc. It's basically just having a notion of what the game will look like in your head before it begins.

Of course, you will dip your toes in all of them, especially 5 and 6, over time, otherwise you wouldn't ever get close to practice your offensive strategies in step 3.

Remember, everything you do should follow pre-planned flowcharts, outside of randomness in mix-up and etc (which is calculated randomness)., and reaction stuff such as movement.

[SanguineScale]

]

3. Now it gets fun! Learn universal offense. By universal, I mean everything that is not match-up specific. This is for all situations were you are in control, and your opponent is reacting. Since you are in control, you have freedom of choice, which is why I recommend learning offense before defense. Learn your characters mix-up, general wake-up, etc. Everything that hardly changes from situation to situation, or character to character. Now we are talking mastery, not just learning. This will take a while. Remember, we are only talking things that are largely mechanical, that don't require you to think ahead or improvise.

4. With the above, learn and master the appropriate combos that the prior-mastered strategies will let you land. Will take long.

Alright I'm assuming that these two steps are where I'm at right now, but I seem to have somewhat skipped over three. I am in the process of committing certain bnbs to memory using training mode, usually the main ones featured on this site or in the challenges. From lurking around these forums, I've learned a lot about what universal offense is, but not exactly in what manner to implement it. I've heard the word "blockstring" a lot. I have a vague idea of what this is but if someone could clarify for me that would be a big help. I've noticed recently that I can pull off certain bnbs in matches by muscle memory, but I'm guessing that means nothing if I can't find the openings to land them, so universal offense seems like a huge step I need to start taking.

Btw this step outline is really well-done imo. I can understand it and I really feel that this is how my learning process has been going so far. Hopefully with practice I'll be able to graduate on to bigger steps and start having some real fun with this game.

[Airk]

"Blockstrings" are, well, strings of attacks that you do in anticipation of them being blocked. The purpose of a blockstring is to apply pressure to your opponent - to force them to block and maybe make a mistake, and also to push them towards the corner, and/or launch your next attack from a favorable position.

In order to be worthwhile, a blockstring should be (mostly) safe. That means it doesn't contain (m)any gaps where an opponent can use a frame 1 invincible move to hit you, and it doesn't end with a move that has a lot of recovery. Otherwise, you stand to lose more than you gain. This is the primary thing that differentiates what makes a good blockstring from a good combo.

A GOOD blockstring is also branching, so you don't do the same thing every time. This makes it harder for an opponent to instant block and escape, and even better, it may allow you to go into a mixup - if a certain move can gatling into both a low and an overhead, for example. (Aside: Many overheads actually result in a blockstring being unsafe, so you won't want to use them too heavily.)

Blockstrings are only part of a good offense though.

[SanguineScale]

ok well then i guess my next question is how do i find out what is a good blockstring? I have the challenge mode and this website for combos, which im guessing is another part of a good offense, so if something like that was around for blockstrings, that would be a great help. I notice stronger players online all the time fiercely mixing me up during matches and I want to learn how to start applying something like that in my game.

[KayEff]

The key to blockstrings is to keep yourself on a positive frame advantage without showing too many holes in your pressure. In all honesty, there's no single "good" blockstring that you can rely on. Every blockstring has its holes, and are emphasized the more you use that certain blockstring. Repeating blockstrings can work for someone who has little experience, but for seasoned players who know how to adapt to their surroundings, they will probably learn to block accordingly (or IB and fuck you over).

To keep a good offense is to keep your opponent guessing. To start applying good mixup, you'll have to familiarize yourself with what each normal and special in your arsenal is capable of, and what moves gatling into what. You'll also want to keep in mind what moves are safe; for example, Ragna's 2C is a good move to have in a blockstring since it ends on a +1 frame advantage. However, Ragna's Gauntlet Hades is a move you should use sparingly, despite having overhead properties. This is because Gauntlet Hades cannot be canceled unless with an RC, which is not available to you all the time (despite Ragna having gdlk heat gain). If someone blocks your Gauntlet Hades and you have no RC available, you could eat some serious damage.

These kinds of things take time to learn, though. You'll just have to keep practicing and learn from your mistakes. Watching other people's videos could help, though.

[Airk]

Well, what character do you play? You can always ask on the appropriate character specific forum. That's the quick way.

Otherwise, you can usually START with a simple combo - say you're looking at Ragna, glancing at his combo thread in the forums shows that 2A, 5B, 6A, 5C is a combo. So then you go over to the frame data and observe that 5C is -8 on block - that's not a good thing to end on. So you can either try to Gatling to a different move there - fortunately, 6A gatlings into a bunch of stuff - like 2C, which is +1, which is pretty nice, or you can cancel your 5C (or whatever) into a special move. The trouble with that is that most specials are even more unsafe on block. Hell's Fang without the followup is only -4, so that's not TOO bad. Most moves have at least 5 frames of startup, so you're generally safe on a non-instant block (Though you may not be able to continue your pressure). Alternatively, you could go for Dead Spike, which is actually +5 on block, but it's sufficiently slow to start up that you'll be leaving a gap where your opponent could counterattack you if they realize what you're doing... so you don't want to end with Dead Spike all the time.

And then you take it to the next level, and notice that 6A could also gatling into 6B - which is an overhead, or even into 3C, which is a low (but quite unsafe on block, so you'll want to seriously consider a special cancel). So you can start mixing those in. Alternatively, you could cut the whole thing short and just go from 2A into choice of 5B, 6B or 5B - that's a mid, a high, or a low -to add some mixup and confusion into your game.

Disclaimer: I don't play Ragna, and some of this is probably unsafe somewhere for one reason or another, so take it all with a grain of salt, but the general theory is sound.

[Zeromus_X]

I think spacing/distance is also something to consider in blockstrings. Like again with Ragna, his 5C isn't really "safe" as far as frames go, but if you're near the max range it's pretty safe to end with (plus you can gatling into whiffed 2C or special cancel into Dead Spike). Or with Mu, her 6C is really unsafe if it's blocked from the closest range, even if you cancel it into something. But if you push them out and try to get them to block the tip of it, it's pretty much safe as long as you cancel.

[SanguineScale]

Well, what character do you play? You can always ask on the appropriate character specific forum. That's the quick way.

Otherwise, you can usually START with a simple combo - say you're looking at Ragna, glancing at his combo thread in the forums shows that 2A, 5B, 6A, 5C is a combo. So then you go over to the frame data and observe that 5C is -8 on block - that's not a good thing to end on. So you can either try to Gatling to a different move there - fortunately, 6A gatlings into a bunch of stuff - like 2C, which is +1, which is pretty nice, or you can cancel your 5C (or whatever) into a special move. The trouble with that is that most specials are even more unsafe on block. Hell's Fang without the followup is only -4, so that's not TOO bad. Most moves have at least 5 frames of startup, so you're generally safe on a non-instant block (Though you may not be able to continue your pressure). Alternatively, you could go for Dead Spike, which is actually +5 on block, but it's sufficiently slow to start up that you'll be leaving a gap where your opponent could counterattack you if they realize what you're doing... so you don't want to end with Dead Spike all the time.

And then you take it to the next level, and notice that 6A could also gatling into 6B - which is an overhead, or even into 3C, which is a low (but quite unsafe on block, so you'll want to seriously consider a special cancel). So you can start mixing those in. Alternatively, you could cut the whole thing short and just go from 2A into choice of 5B, 6B or 5B - that's a mid, a high, or a low -to add some mixup and confusion into your game.

Disclaimer: I don't play Ragna, and some of this is probably unsafe somewhere for one reason or another, so take it all with a grain of salt, but the general theory is sound.

wow that was actually really helpful..... btw i actually main Ragna, so this info truly does pertain to me and is quite insightful. I will be sure to take it with a grain of salt as you said, but I must start somewhere, and im sure there are much worse ways i could go about performing blockstrings.

The way I see it, I have a number of options on ground mixups, as you have stated above. Special cancels are a possibility, as are gatlings into moves with positive frame advantages. My blockstring must end at some point however, and at that point it is advantageous to not leave your opponent too big of an opening to strike back. Certain specials are incredibly unsafe on block, but are not all bad so long as they are not routinely used. I've very often all around this site that mixups should keep the opponent guessing, and the blockstrings they stem from should reflect that fact. So I could go off of what you said, and end my blockstring a variety of ways: Dead Spike, Hell's Fang, an overhead, a low sweep, or even turn the blockstring into a two hit affair, switching from high, mid, and low periodically.

Slowly, this is starting to make more and more sense. It seems I am learning :D Now its time for practice

[SanguineScale]

I think spacing/distance is also something to consider in blockstrings. Like again with Ragna, his 5C isn't really "safe" as far as frames go, but if you're near the max range it's pretty safe to end with (plus you can gatling into whiffed 2C or special cancel into Dead Spike). Or with Mu, her 6C is really unsafe if it's blocked from the closest range, even if you cancel it into something. But if you push them out and try to get them to block the tip of it, it's pretty much safe as long as you cancel.

Also, now this explains why, in the tutorial, the game always harps on hitting with the very edge of every normal. It basically increases the possibility of avoiding unnecessary punishment in a situation where frame advantage lies out of your favor.

lol it all makes sense now... :P Thanks man

[Airk]

Right.

Some specials are virtually never safe - Gauntlet Hades tends to fall into this category, though there's room for a small amount of mixup there with whether you do the followup or not. So that one should be used carefully, and you should be sure to avoid being predictable with it - even if it hit the last time you did it a certain way, you'll probably want to do some other stuff for a while before you do it that way again. Similarly, the Hell's Fang followup is just begging for a punish on block, so you really never want to break that out unless your Hell's Fang actually hits.

Moving from a basic blockstring in a blockstring with good mixup means you need to know which of your moves gatling from which, and then using as wide a variety of options as possible. Even moves are unsafe on block can be worth sticking out there every so often just to catch the opponent off guard - and doubly so if you happen to have 50 heat for a rapid cancel. Especially doubly if your opponent things that a certain move is a free punish, and autopilots a counterattack even though you rapid cancel, turning say, that -11 from 3C into something in the neighborhood of +16. And still another thing to consider is that once your opponent is blocking, and thinking really hard about watching for your next overhead, that's a perfect time to step forward and throw, because unless they're really on their game, they won't be thinking about teching your throw. And of course, every Dead Spike you can sucker them into blocking will knock a guard primer off them. On characters with low numbers of primers (Hazama, Valkenhayn, Carl, probably some others), landing a single Dead Spike after they've done a green burst means they're in danger of being guard crushed.

And then of course, you have moves that can be dash cancelled (6C), or jump cancelled (Most C attacks for Ragna) which allows you other options to continue pressure.

But mostly, yeah; Sounds like you grasp the basics. Stop listening to me theoryfighting and try some of this stuff out.

[Manta]

Probably the next trick along the way with blockstrings is the frametrap. The idea is that you're deliberately leaving gaps in your blockstring where your opponent is able to attack, they attempt to mash out (using 5A or whatever) and you've timed a move in advance that will stuff their move and get you a nice counterhit combo. This sounds complicated, but you've probably been using it all along without realising it. For example, if you do (As Ragna) a blockstring which goes 5B > 6C, you've left a gap that's 2 frames wide at its smallest. No move without invulnerability will be able to beat you out of the 6C but unlike perfect blockstrings, your opponent may still try and then regret it. Obviously if they do a reversal move or something else with 1st frame invulnerability (like most backdashes) they'll get out of it, also in this case 6C gives a bad frame advantage which will get you punished unless you've pushed them far enough away.

This is just an example of course. In more advanced cases you might try deliberately delaying moves that normally give perfect blockstrings (i.e. No frame gaps) in order to be unpredictable. It can also extend to other facets, like using it to get a throw-counter for example.

Also not a Ragna player by nature.

[HowlingDragoon]

Hey, I went ahead and made an account just to say how much I appreciated seeing this thread. My situation has been very similar to the TC's, where I've been playing fighters without really "playing" them for a long time, and have had nearly-identical problems with the typical practice advice. The adage about "just keep practicing is the only way to learn" was proving useless for me, since what I really needed to learn was how to learn.

The replies from Chozo003 and SolarMisae were especially helpful. I'm clearly not past the "execution" stage of learning, and the difficulties involved have been an incredible discouragement for me, with how slow I've been to pick things up. The TC's statement about this is extremely 'me':

No no, this is definitely an element of it. I've been a big fighting game fan since I was a child but have been really inconsistent with playing them. As such I think I've developed the mentality "I've been playing these games for like 15+ years so why can't I do this fucking BnB combo?" even though there have been months or even years in between games. I mean, before BBCS the last one I played for say more than 2 days in a row was SSFIV in April, and before that probably Third Strike about 4 years ago.

In particular, I've never been sure whether the stunted pace I felt myself learning at was overly expectant/insecure about a fairly normal process, or whether sluggish motor-skill learning issues were turning what should be a normal practice endeavor into something closer to this:

http://www.snafu-comics.com/comics.php?comic_id=227

End result it becomes too discouraging to stay consistent with, leading to a looping behavior the next time I try to learn after not having touched BB for months. And this is all just basic execution stuff I'm talking about.

Regardless of whether the slow pace is normal or not, I think my personal best bet for "learning process" is going to be following Chozo003's steps here:

1. Learn characters moveset in-depth

2. Learn really short, easy combos (no BNBs)

3. Learn to hitconfirm those combos really well

4. Learn to pressure, zone, block

5. Learn spacing, how to use the entirety of my character's moveset effectively

6. Learn a few more short combos (still no BNBs =[ ) and how to hit confirm them/go into them from common attacks

...Basically matches the kind of behavior I use when I do see actual improvement.

Perhaps the most backwards or "Catch 22" type part of the scenario is not knowing how far I need to get at "knowing what I'm doing" to be able to even learn anything from going online and getting pounded on. Overestimate it, and end up staying offline trying to learn things that can't be learned that way. Underestimate it, and run into TC's problem where you don't have enough grasp on things to actually learn from losses.

In fact, I've cared so much more about doing well in CS than in CT, and done so much worse at it, that I don't know that I've even done an online match since CT. I know I haven't on my main profile, at least.

Anyway, reading through this thread mattered enough to me to make a point of saying so. Thanks I guess?

[Airk]

One of the other tricks I've discovered about the way _I_ play, is that if I play for too long, my performance actually gets WORSE (maybe I'm getting frustrated), but if I take a break for the day, then next time I come back, my execution will be really on point.

So... don't grind too hard. Remember to take breaks.

Also, keep some replays of yourself from a long time ago, and watch them when you need a morale boost. Because I was watching some replays of myself from mid December, and holy cow, my execution was TERRIBLE. Makes me feel much better to realize that I'm now messing up much more advanced combos way less often than I used to drop really basic stuff.

[Manta]

Howlingdragon, who is it you're playing as? Perhaps the problem you are having is not so much learning combos as it is knowing what your normals do without even needing to think. Also there's breaking down combos into component parts. For example, as Tager when I do this combo:

Magnetised 6A 2C 623C 623C (whiff) 6B 2C 623C 236B 22D

I'm actually thinking:

Hook in, launch into collider, attract, launch into collider, Bgadget

Where each component is separated by a comma. Once you can see your combos like this, it becomes much easier to learn longer combos.