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LunaKage

[CS2] Noel CS1 -> CS2 Changlog

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I m talking about the whiff recover :)

Ah okay. That also feels the same from CS1.

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Erm, even if 5C 3C was possible on standing opponnent we should not use as auto confirm regarding the fact that it's awful on block :D

The key word in my post was confirm. If you were to do 5A > 5B > 5C > 2C > 3C, even people who have really slow reaction time would be able to tell if the string was connecting at 2C.

It's a moot point anyways, because this will never happen, Mori likes Noel, yet he gives all of the other characters the easiest stuff :C

I actually love doing hard combos

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Just now, I m looking at Noel's frame data in BBCS2, laughing at 6C P1 100% Attack lvl 4.

It's almost at CT level, but not quite there. I find myself using it a lot more now that you can do 6C > 2C > 5C as a block string that can gatling to 6B, 3C(pretty bad), or BC whiffed. It's crazy how a couple tweaks to her gatling string can totally turn her pressure game upside-down.

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Okay so today I got CS2 Portable (obviously imported) and after I screwed with Tsubaki for the longest time, I turned towards that girl with the guns that's technically my main. Reason why I say technically is because she was in grave danger of being dropped due to the reasons of not only expressing a mortal hate towards her actual character, but also starting to become bored of her playstyle. But ANYWAYS I looked into her again, blazed through her challenges which are so stupidly easy (I mean challenge #9 is just 5B 5C 2362369D 632146D for god's sake) and it started looking really grim for her. I noted that her damage was a bit...lacking and she felt really odd to me. It was like they killed the bitch and gave me someone else to mess around with, I mean sure she is supposedly top tier, but she just wasn't fun enough to be worth it. At least this is what I initially thought within my first 10 minutes with her...

I came here to the forum to check and see if anyone had stuff worth noting about her aside from her awesome buffs in her normals and whatnot. I was enlightened by this thread and I was shocked that 236A had found use in combos now all of the sudden (I don't use match videos as references ever so this was news to me). I tried out only one combo in the combo thread and it only took that combo to make me excited about CS2 Noel again. I'm messing with her more in training mode now and I'm having a blast. I feel like I'm back in the CT days where I could throw really silly things together and roll with it.

I'll definitely contribute a bit of what I can as I play with CS2 Noel. Don't get me wrong, I still strongly dislike her incompetent and clumsy as hell character, but she is fun to play again. *tsundere*

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It seems there is an even larger window to continue with CR than before. You can be almost to the reloading animation and press another button, and that next CR move will come out. In a way we have a method to stagger pressure with CR, or maybe even have time to read a counterattack and react accordingly like with Spring Raid or Assault Through. She's looking to be trickier and trickier the more she's getting played...!

EDIT: Tested some more gatlings. 2B > 2C will combo together. So now, you can do 2B > 2C > 5C > 6B as a possible fish for overhead, and go into 3C for a haida pickup. Also, with 2C being +3F, you can always opt to end the string there and possibly go for a 66C to find a CH if they want to throw out something after your initial string is over.

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EDIT: Tested some more gatlings. 2B > 2C will combo together. So now, you can do 2B > 2C > 5C > 6B as a possible fish for overhead, and go into 3C for a haida pickup. Also, with 2C being +3F, you can always opt to end the string there and possibly go for a 66C to find a CH if they want to throw out something after your initial string is over.

2C has +3F on block?! So for once, noel has a decent safe move?!

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2C has +3F on block?! So for once, noel has a decent safe move?!

2C was +1 in CS already, so yeah, she has had a decent "safe move" for a while.

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2C was +1 in CS already, so yeah, she has had a decent "safe move" for a while.

Well, now she's got a truly "safe move". With IB nerf, it goes down to 0 and not a negative. It's even more usable now as a frame trap, especially if they try to poke out something after it and you stagger a 5C and possibly get a counter hit.

Also, with 2A being +1F as well, we can start applying safe pressure with it and ending with 2C.

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CS 2C was truly safe too. No move in CS comes out in 4 frames, so it was safe even on IB. It's definitely better, but she did have a truly safe move in CS, i'm just surprised that people act like nothing she had was safe.

Not sure about frame trapping with 5C though. 2C isn't hard to IB, and 5C is pretty slow, so not sure about frame trapping with it. Might be a better idea to try 5D>stuff after that to invuln through whatever they were trynna do.

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CS 2C was truly safe too. No move in CS comes out in 4 frames, so it was safe even on IB. It's definitely better, but she did have a truly safe move in CS, i'm just surprised that people act like nothing she had was safe.

Not sure about frame trapping with 5C though. 2C isn't hard to IB, and 5C is pretty slow, so not sure about frame trapping with it. Might be a better idea to try 5D>stuff after that to invuln through whatever they were trynna do.

Well, frame trapping is easier with 5C now that 2C > 5C is a gatling. And people do still try to do something after 2C since it looks like the end of a blockstring.

And 5D is pretty bad to use now as a yomi move. If you do try to read and anticipate with 5D, you will be hit out of it. The adjustment on the invuln frames of 5D make it even more for reaction than anticipation, and meaties will beat out 5D clean.

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CS 2C was truly safe too. No move in CS comes out in 4 frames, so it was safe even on IB. It's definitely better, but she did have a truly safe move in CS, i'm just surprised that people act like nothing she had was safe.

It's more the fact that we couldn't do anything after 2C (bar 3C which is a ridiculous idea..) that makes us not care for it much. Instead of just doing 2C and having to block/run away every time, we can now make the opponent have to think of all our possible options. 2C in CS was safe but it wasn't 'decent' in terms of anything but the frame advantage.

Probably not the best idea. This assumes that our opponent is trying to mash something out during our blockstrings so, if they keep blocking and we enter drive state, we could find ourselves in a lot more trouble. That being said, we'd still have to play around with the 2C > 5C thing to see if it's viable and we do know our drive attacks speed has increased and possibly made certain strings safer, but the prior option just sounds safer to me.

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Isn't it gapless meaning even if they mash they're still in block stun? Might work if you can stagger it though. If anyone has a psp, they should try that. Set the training dummy to 2C>5C and 2C>staggered 5C if possible while you I.B>5A and see what happens.

HexEdit: Yeah 5C is the safest option since it gatlings, but unless it can be staggered, no frame trap is happening. Which is why I was thinking of 5D, which coupled with the increased drive strings speed give you a decent high/low mix up on anyone without a good DP if they don't press buttons.

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Isn't it gapless meaning even if they mash they're still in block stun? Might work if you can stagger it though. If anyone has a psp, they should try that. Set the training dummy to 2C>5C and 2C>staggered 5C if possible while you I.B>5A and see what happens.

HexEdit: Yeah 5C is the safest option since it gatlings, but unless it can be staggered, no frame trap is happening. Which is why I was thinking of 5D, which coupled with the increased drive strings speed give you a decent high/low mix up on anyone without a good DP if they don't press buttons.

Just tried it. Staggered will score a CH.

And following with anything that isn't 2D is very unsafe since the starter speeds are still the same as CS1. And even if the mid-CR speed has been increased, it still isn't very safe to throw out.

And in the case of 5D, you pretty much have to input it moment right before the move will hit you, so any kind of yomi attempt will get stuffed by the tail end of those moves.

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Just tried it. Staggered will score a CH.

And following with anything that isn't 2D is very unsafe since the starter speeds are still the same as CS1. And even if the mid-CR speed has been increased, it still isn't very safe to throw out.

Good stuff.

Can CR strings still be interrupted with normals after blocking/instant blocking the initial starter? Can you try 5D/2D>6B/6D and see if the starter is blocked/Instant blocked the follow up moves can be 5A'd?

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Also Sky, can you test out the whole d.5D vs d.5B in the corner please? Or has it been confirmed that d.5D is better already?

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Good stuff.

Can CR strings still be interrupted with normals after blocking/instant blocking the initial starter? Can you try 5D/2D>6B/6D and see if the starter is blocked/Instant blocked the follow up moves can be 5A'd?

On those, you don't even have to IB since the 6B/6D will come out like it did in CS1. However, adding a d.6A after the drive starter will making it a bit harder to counterattack if the starter wasn't IB'ed, and 5D/2D > d.6A > d.6B has a tight enough window to where the worst you get is being traded out of drive.. But, if you IB the starter, a 5A will beat out the d.6A

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Ah okay. I was finding it surprising when a lot of japanese players would just block after a D starter and get blown up by overheads/lows. They respek Noel a bit too much over there lol.

Good stuff sky

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Also Sky, can you test out the whole d.5D vs d.5B in the corner please? Or has it been confirmed that d.5D is better already?

Tried out:

6A > 6C > jc > j.D > d.6D > d.6B > d.5D > d.5C > BT (2376; 25 Heat)

6A > 6C > jc > j.D > d.6D > d.6B > d.5B > d.5D > BT (2369; 26 Heat)

6A > 6C > jc > j.D > d.6D > d.5D > d.5C > d.6B > BT (2380; 25 Heat)

So overall, the new one works a bit better for overall damage, and the heat isn't too bad unless you know exactly how much heat you need to get the meter. Also, the last one allows you to Fenrir instead of Bloom since the d.6B properties drag down the opponent into the Fenrir hit, but if you do it and don't do each CR move immediately, you risk whiffing and crossing under.

Ah okay. I was finding it surprising when a lot of japanese players would just block after a D starter and get blown up by overheads/lows. They respek Noel a bit too much over there lol.

Good stuff sky

IMO, CR is tricky to try and mash out of with her ability to change speeds and directions with her moves. And with the extended windows to cancel out CR moves, you can somewhat react with Assault Through, Spring Raid, Muzzle Flitter, Optic Barrel, or another CR move that can avoid moves like d.2D, d.4D, or even beating things out with d.5B or d.6A, and even risk an air unblock with SR, and d.5A.

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CS 2C was "safe" but gave us noting, since it's pushback made it's plus frames moot. It was only good for returning us to neutral most of the time, and Noel hates neutral.

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Putting this here since the frame data is finished for CS2 Noel, something to compare CS1 and CS2:

CS1 Data: http://dustloop.com/guides/bbcs/frameData/noel.html

CS2 Data: http://dustloop.com/guides/bbcs2/frameData/noel.html

One thing I noticed right away is the changes they made to 5D. CS1 had 23F startup, with frames 5-19 having strike invuln. In CS2, they increased the startup tp 27F and having head and body invuln through only frames 3-15. So the window for getting hit after the invuln is much greater now, and you pretty much have to react to use 5D effectively.

Also, j.4D has it's invuln tweaked to much earlier in the move to where it's 1-21F instead of the 7-26F that was in CS1. And having the start up reduced from 15F to 10F makes this move just as insane as we saw in the videos. It helps too that it's now a low.

Now, I'm hoping for a hitbox viewer so we can put all of these pieces together.\

EDIT: A list of Noel's Air unblockables---

6A, 5B, 2B, 6B, 5C, 2C, 6C, 5D, 6D, d.5A, d.6A, d.5B, d.6B, d.5C, d.5D, d.6D, Assault Through, Spring Raid

Yeah, we've got some decent ones.

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Think I might see a mistake in the frame data. For 2D it says you can cancel into other CR moves at frames 10-15, that can't be right.

Edit: Ok, I see what it should say. For the followup version it says 10-15 frames after landing. For the start up version it just says 10-15 frames.

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Think I might see a mistake in the frame data. For 2D it says you can cancel into other CR moves at frames 10-15, that can't be right.

Edit: Ok, I see what it should say. For the followup version it says 10-15 frames after landing. For the start up version it just says 10-15 frames.

Yeah I noticed that too. not too big of a deal as long as people understand the error.

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