[CS2/EX] Hakumen Info and Discussion

[zdravkelja]

Oh, his damage is very good, he can still get over 6k with 5 stars. And his 2-3 star combos are stronger now. In corner of course, everyone is nerfed midscreen. Actually, the only thing I don't like is that j.D nerf, everything else is great. I'm not sure why Hakumen has dropped on tier list. Midscreen combos are nerfed for everyone (and Haku can still get 5k midscreen), his C moves are faster, 4C special cancelable. Hotaru is nerfed on normal hit, but there is hardly cases you would use normal Hotaru. j.D and Renka proration (and you can still get good damage with Renka) are the only real nerfs for me.

[ryokoalways]

Change to IB makes hakumen much less intimidating during block strings. Risk/reward againt A/B block strings are now too horribly in opponent favor to try to punish. This wouldn't be too big of a problem if hakumen had a real back dash. Hakumen needs to create more space than other characters to be able to back out safely.

Hakumen's poke starters got nerfed noticeably. Add the fact that 120% on renka is

gone, anything that's not 5C starter has far greater reduced damage than just the overall tone down for everyone. This means opponents will almost always win risk/reward in the middle of the screen.

To clarify, hakumen's C moves are not faster. All of them are the same, and jC is slower by 1-2F. The most interesting speed increase is jB going from 10F to 8F. This means fuzzy guard jB>tsubaki becomes a very important mixup tool anywhere. I would think overhead jB should be usable on more than just tager and hakumen now, but that would still need to be tested. And of course there is improved kishuu, which is now safe against IB dp punishes in IBed entry.

Additions such as ground strings and magatama off catch are offset by the fact that Hakumen's meter gain got nerfed (longer static after specials) and catch is much less reliable. Reduced combo capability also makes meter return much worse in the middle of the screen. Again, IB nerf also makes magatama much more valuable. I could spam hotaru all day in CS1 and never go below 3 magatamas. I know for a fact that won't be the case in CS2.

Only real buffs were hotaru (corner, also since it can work as a gimmick cross-up that's actually reliable), yukikaze (marginally, still not accessible enough to make a big difference), jB, tsubaki (thanks mostly to jB), kishuu, and 6A. Hakumen became worse in most situations and became better in much more specific situations. Losing flexibility and options is never a good thing.

So, it makes sense he went down in tiers, but he is still good enough to compete no problem since he still has mix-up options (which are actually much improved imo).

[zdravkelja]

Thanks for clarification, I still haven't played him enough to notice everything, I was just testing combos on friends PSP. I totally forgot about magatama nerf

I'm sure I saw somewhere that C moves are faster... Meh..

[zreb]

many people have said they were (including reports from the loktests, where even then they may not have actually been faster. see 6c.) Just check the frame data from the mooks.

[BladeOfJustice7]

many people have said they were (including reports from the loktests, where even then they may not have actually been faster. see 6c.) Just check the frame data from the mooks.

6c is definitely slower, so basically they nerfed the damage of his slashes and in a few cases nerfed the speed as well. I don't get get why he was hit so hard with nerf because he was just solid in cs1. But wtv, he's more of a threat in the corner now (kind of), just wished they left some of of mid range damage he had in cs1.

Ryoko, what's your views on the overall situation of counters as in risk/reward compared to cs1.

[WolfCrimson]

Add the fact that 120% on renka is gone

What? BBCS2 frame data states that 120% bonus prorate's still there.

[itsme]

And as a final flavor note, 6C fatal combos (is it me or does 6C fatal > 6C > 5C > enma loop not work anymore?) and 6D Mugen (I just tried out 6D > Mugen > step Renka > Kishuu > 6D on green Burst > step Renka > loop > Shippu, and it still only goes to 7280 damage) being nerfed gets to me. Oh wells, time to stop worrying on gimmicks and play the game.

EDIT: Also, the mag cooldown after Mugen though you shouldn't be doing Mugen in the first place.

[Spark]

6C has repeat prorate, so that's why that combo doesn't work anymore.

[ryokoalways]

I did the comparison for startup frames with scan from previous mook, so I'm sure about C moves all being the same. The only startup frame changes were

2B from 9>8F

jA from 6>7

jB from 10>8

jC from 11>12 (it was previously same speed as Jin's)

As for renka, I was 100% certain that 120% is gone. Let's assume it isn't for now though as the translation notes state it's still there (I did not do this version so I never saw the Japanese mook scan). That said, the damage you get off poke>renka is still abysmal in the middle of the screen, whereas before you can still get respectable dmg if you were able to confirm pre-renka with just 1 hit.

Regarding counter, again, it's just due to IB nerf because you generally cannot create your own chance to catch stuff anymore. Your opponent now has more control to when catch is a viable option, which is why it's extremely risky. On top of that, now all catch has 45% proration, which is a sharp drop from ~60% you had previously. In normal instances, the changes only hurts 2D significantly, but in certain instances where you may want to break out dmg for the kill, that's no longer possible.

6C has same move proration. Do not do it more than once in a combo. And as above stated. 6D has the worst proration nerf relatively because it used to not do dmg.

[BladeOfJustice7]

jC from 11>12 (it was previously same speed as Jin's)

Although the cs1 data is gone from the frame data thread, I swore I read jin's jc in cs1 was one frame faster than hakumens. It also felt that way while playing, could be wrong though, just my thoughts.

Regarding counter, again, it's just due to IB nerf because you generally cannot create your own chance to catch stuff anymore. Your opponent now has more control to when catch is a viable option, which is why it's extremely risky. On top of that, now all catch has 45% proration, which is a sharp drop from ~60% you had previously. In normal instances, the changes only hurts 2D significantly, but in certain instances where you may want to break out dmg for the kill, that's no longer possible.

Thanks for your input, sorry if I made you feel like you were repeating yourself.

6C has same move proration. Do not do it more than once in a combo. And as above stated. 6D has the worst proration nerf relatively because it used to not do dmg.

I noticed that while fooling around in training mode.

Is the projectile cutting properties on 2c confirmed to be fixed, I heard some info about it being fixed but I haven't tested it out or seen anything about it.

[zreb]

CS1 Jin jC = 10 frames, Haku = 11 frames. You can still access the old frame data by just removing the "2" from bbcs2 in the URL when you're looking at the current stuff.

[BladeOfJustice7]

CS1 Jin jC = 10 frames, Haku = 11 frames.

I knew it.

You can still access the old frame data by just removing the "2" from bbcs2 in the URL when you're looking at the current stuff.

I don't know why something with so much common sense as that, I never though it. Especially considering the time I spend with computers. Thanks for the tip though.

[Sophisticat]

Finally put my mits on CS2 Haku for a very brief half hour of matches.

My take: I didn't notice all that much different. Then again, I really haven't put in all that much time. For now, TK Hotaru is a GODSEND! I finally don't have to worry about renka coming out instead. :D

I also took to his new inputs like water. No problem switching at all. I guess watching all those vids paid off.

[mAc Chaos]

Hah... you'll notice the difference soon enough.

[snipingsnipe]

Im loving all his new air unblockable stuff, and that 4c is actually useful outside trolling tager

[banshee]

so has his air throw range been increased as it was stated in several loketests?

[rtl42]

yes, from 90 to 100.

h ttp://dustloop.com/guides/bbcs2/frameData/hakumen.html

h ttp://dustloop.com/guides/bbcs/frameData/hakumen.html

[WolfCrimson]

Errr... how is throw range interpreted? Ok so Haku's air throw range has been buffed from 90 to 100... I don't understand what that means.

[ryokoalways]

It's horizontal range. Don't make it more complicated than it is.

[qwerty]

throw ranges are measured in pixels (px). he probably just didn't know what 90 and 100 were referring to.

[GNkyrios]

so i did the new challenges for consoles, and i noticed u can do the corner bnb (renka(1),kishu,6C...) with just 2C,j2A relaunch, in psp hj2A was mandatory, did that changed or im seeing something wrong?

also, do guard break have som damage reduction? i tried challenge 10 as a combo after guard break and it did like 1k less damage

[zreb]

I did some testing with Haku's j.B after seeing Spark's note about it being an instant overhead vs. Bang. It works on Ragna, Taokaka, Tager, Hakumen, Bang, and Carl. If you catch them blocking high with 5b, going into instant j.B will be fuzzy. Hit confirming this into Tsubaki can go into 4.5k near corner. IB ruins the fuzzy setup though, so it's probably situational at best.

[Sophisticat]

Yeah, honestly, he doesn't feel all that different so far. The reduced dmg/meter gain is there, but it's mostly background noise to me. Then again, I play rushdown so how many stars I have just dictate what combo I do and the damage is just there to tell me I should hit more often. *shrug*

Combos are fun again. I can go wild and do whatever in the corner. Midscreen does indeed suck. Definitely feels like he's lost something here. I'll settle on playing SF and doing corner carry stuff for now.

What does feel different, however, is the matchups. I played a solid Rachel online and I can tell this one won't be fun at all. She feels back to her CT self. Joy. Another is Noel. In CS1, Haku has the definite advantage simply because she sucked as a character. Not so now, her pressure is legit, she seems easily able to break primers, and she can drive spam like it was CT all over again. Tsubaki might be difficult too, but I couldn't really tell. Her pressure is definitely better, but she doesn't feel all that different to me. We'll see.

Overall, I think Haku's weaknesses should be focused on less than how to deal with the new matchups. Get them to the corner, then blow those stars into 6k+ combos is the new order.

[itsme]

I don't know why but Ragna seems to be a completely new match up for me. Noel is definitely much more annoying while Rachel and Tsubaki seems the same but needed to handle with more caution now that they can actually hurt you.

[mAc Chaos]

I need to figure out how to get people to respect Haku pressure now. Not much to prevent mashing if the worst they have to fear is 1-2k. The damage nerf / lower star gain indirectly affects how we play in areas like that. They also have to respect our defensive tools less.

Probably just need to zone more.