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[CS2/EX] Hakumen Info and Discussion

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  • To properly combo using TK/Hop Hotaru, you will have to wait for Hakumen to land after the hit to IAD. The difference is that you will combo into different things depending on whether or not you got a FC off of Hotaru. On regular hit, you can do IAD -> j.2A -> j.C as well as IAD -> Air Throw. On FC, you can do IAD -> j.2C -> 2C -> Corner Loop if you were anywhere past midscreen when you used Hotaru (see Hakumen Challenge #9). You'll get ~2.3k off of a regular hit and ~4.3k on FC, so the difference is quite big.

  • Hop/TK Tsubaki can only be followed up if the opponent slides into the corner. There are a few combos that you can do after it that are listed in the Combo Discussion thread, I believe. You can combo after Tsubaki midscreen if you are almost directly above your opponent. You can then Air Dash -> j.2C -> 2C -> so on.

  • The reason you can't pull it out on wake-up could be due to a few factors. The first is that you have 4F of jump startup which means at the earliest, Hotaru comes out on frame 5. It can be used on wake-up, however any attacks that's active when you Neutral Tech will hit you in the jump's startup frames (so block). TK Hotaru is great for using when you see large holes in your opponent's blockstrings or to punish unsafe/whiffed attacks.

  • His 2D and 6D come out on Frame 1 so you can use those instead of Yukikaze (6D for high/2D for low).

If you have any more questions, feel free to ask.

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Ah that explains why I kept getting hit out of TK Hotaru. Now I need to practice his Hotaru combos while not in corner.

As a matter of fact, I've been experimenting as well as looking at the combo thread, I am not very sure of the properties but if, somehow, I manage to push my opponent to a corner by his standard BnB(E.G. dust loop, as noted in the combo thread), can I cancel his 2A into Hotaru, land, 6C and start corner loop? It seems like it is doable but everytime after 6C, I hop in and the opponent can tech.

Next question I have would be about his catches, which catch should I go about using? And is it just me or did his air catch's active frame and start up got changes since CS1? I can't seem to catch my opponent properly with his air catch anymore as compared to CS1, not like its of much use anyway in CS2. In what sort of situation is 5D better than 6D? I understand 5D has a way longer active frame, which is why its my choice of catch because I am still learning to use his catch. And since 2D and 6D comes out on frame 1, does that mean I can use them like Yukikaze, as a wake up reversal? Using Yukikaze on wake up have served me really really well so far.

Another question I have is that, after any pickup -> Gurren, I have problems doing hop, 5A 6A 5A j2A... Mainly I either delay my first 5A too long so the opponent teches, or I press my 5A too early and 6A would end up leaving my opponent too high for the 2nd 5A. Is there any tricks to doing this? The only times Im practicing this is at the arcades because I don't own any of the console with BB, and I only manage to pull it off like 4-5 times out of 20 over tries so far. It seems like this is the most practical carry combo from mid screen, after a 3C CH, or 5D catch, it brings my opponent rather far off. The other carry combo I've tried to do and failed so far would be after pickup -> Gurren, IAD jA jB, 2C, j2A... but I am having the same problems, my IAD jA comes off too early and by the time hakumen lands to do 2C, my opponent can tech. I've only managed to get it out like once or twice out of the numerous times I've tried.

Finally, whats a general strategy hakumen should employ? So far I've been playing the keepaway method, abusing jC and 4C, as well as 5A 6A to bring my opponent to my sword's length, and punish anything I can catch from there. I am also really bad at oki, what sorts of things should I try to do while I manage to get an oki? I mainly fight my friend's tager and Platinum, as well as random players (Ragna is one very popular character despite the total makeover in CS2). I have problems oki-ing them, not just because of their invincible divider and the likes of it, but also they always manage to poke me out of whatever Im trying to do when they wake up. I need some tips for this.

It seems like his jC have longer recovery compared to CS1 in my impression. I stopped playing BB since CS1, only picked up Hakumen to play with my friends nearing the end of CS1 before CS2 came around, and trolled them bad with jC and 4C only. After which I slowly learned his combos so that he would be less of a troll and more of a proper fight lol, and Im very familiar with abusing jC in CS1 but in CS2 it seems much much much less abusable. But I enjoy playing Haku-men in CS2, similar to playing Noel who was my main in CT.

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Ah that explains why I kept getting hit out of TK Hotaru. Now I need to practice his Hotaru combos while not in corner.

As a matter of fact, I've been experimenting as well as looking at the combo thread, I am not very sure of the properties but if, somehow, I manage to push my opponent to a corner by his standard BnB(E.G. dust loop, as noted in the combo thread), can I cancel his 2A into Hotaru, land, 6C and start corner loop? It seems like it is doable but everytime after 6C, I hop in and the opponent can tech.

Short answer: It doesn't work. 6C does not have enough untech time for you to hop in and then do 2C even in the corner bnb, much less after the proration from dustloop combo.

(for the record, it's j.2A. I was confused at first by simply "2A.")

Next question I have would be about his catches, which catch should I go about using? And is it just me or did his air catch's active frame and start up got changes since CS1? I can't seem to catch my opponent properly with his air catch anymore as compared to CS1, not like its of much use anyway in CS2. In what sort of situation is 5D better than 6D? I understand 5D has a way longer active frame, which is why its my choice of catch because I am still learning to use his catch. And since 2D and 6D comes out on frame 1, does that mean I can use them like Yukikaze, as a wake up reversal? Using Yukikaze on wake up have served me really really well so far.

j.D was 9 frames active in CS1. It is now only 7. This would be the only difference you would be noticing.

5D is 5 frames startup, 16 frames active, 13 frames recovery. 6D is active on frame 1, 9 frames active, 26 frames recovery. 6D returns more damage (and meter if you're going meterless) than 5D does.

You can indeed use 2D and 6D as a reversal theoretically. You have to take mixup into account since they don't block everything like Yukikaze does, and the fact that parrying on wake up isn't a very safe decision against players who know how to fight Haku. It's no different than how playing any other character, wake up DP is a bad trick to play often. Use sparingly--it is an easy tactic to punish for large damage.

Another question I have is that, after any pickup -> Gurren, I have problems doing hop, 5A 6A 5A j2A... Mainly I either delay my first 5A too long so the opponent teches, or I press my 5A too early and 6A would end up leaving my opponent too high for the 2nd 5A. Is there any tricks to doing this? The only times Im practicing this is at the arcades because I don't own any of the console with BB, and I only manage to pull it off like 4-5 times out of 20 over tries so far. It seems like this is the most practical carry combo from mid screen, after a 3C CH, or 5D catch, it brings my opponent rather far off. The other carry combo I've tried to do and failed so far would be after pickup -> Gurren, IAD jA jB, 2C, j2A... but I am having the same problems, my IAD jA comes off too early and by the time hakumen lands to do 2C, my opponent can tech. I've only managed to get it out like once or twice out of the numerous times I've tried.

First off, if you're having trouble with 5a 6a 5a, then I definitely wouldn't recommend going for the gurren IAD combos. I've yet to even see these in actual japanese matches because the execution is so difficult. I can't personally do them either--it was recommended to me to delay the IAD when I was attempting them, something that was not intuitive to me at all. You also have a small window to delay the j.B after the j.A. It also depends on who you are doing it on. It can't be done on Rachel at all according to Spark. It is harder with Jin than it is with, say, Ragna. Characters with different falling hitboxes have varying levels of strictness as far as timing.

For 5a 6a 5a, there aren't really any tricks and it's simple timing. Practice it and learn that timing. Be thinking about the fact that your 5a takes 5 frames to come out and judge how far your opponent is from the ground accordingly.

Finally, whats a general strategy hakumen should employ? So far I've been playing the keepaway method, abusing jC and 4C, as well as 5A 6A to bring my opponent to my sword's length, and punish anything I can catch from there. I am also really bad at oki, what sorts of things should I try to do while I manage to get an oki? I mainly fight my friend's tager and Platinum, as well as random players (Ragna is one very popular character despite the total makeover in CS2). I have problems oki-ing them, not just because of their invincible divider and the likes of it, but also they always manage to poke me out of whatever Im trying to do when they wake up. I need some tips for this.

Keepaway and build meter is typically the solid gameplan. When you have sufficient meter, you can start going for offense, but Haku shines more on defense (make it a point to learn IBing) than he does on offense as his mixup is poor and midscreen options with meter are very expensive. Generally you want to spend as little meter midscreen as possible (that is within reason) so that it can be used in the corner where the real damage is.

I do not want to say much about his oki because it is a WIP for me. If you're getting poked out of oki on wakeup, then you're either starting your attack very late or using attacks that are simply too slow for the situation you're in (or a combination of both.) 2B is +2 on block and 2a is +1 on block and both start up fairly quickly. Take it one step at a time and figure out what you can do from basics like that. (Also note that 5A hits Tager and Haku on crouching, so you almost always will want to go for that instead of 2A since it's not only faster but +3 instead of +1.)

It seems like his jC have longer recovery compared to CS1 in my impression. I stopped playing BB since CS1, only picked up Hakumen to play with my friends nearing the end of CS1 before CS2 came around, and trolled them bad with jC and 4C only. After which I slowly learned his combos so that he would be less of a troll and more of a proper fight lol, and Im very familiar with abusing jC in CS1 but in CS2 it seems much much much less abusable. But I enjoy playing Haku-men in CS2, similar to playing Noel who was my main in CT.

j.C has landing recovery now, so indeed, it is longer (and has more risk associated) than in CS1. If you're ever wondering about stuff like that, it's highly recommended for you to explore his frame data. If you ever want to check out the old stuff to compare, just change /bbcs2/ to /bbcs/.

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Short answer: It doesn't work. 6C does not have enough untech time for you to hop in and then do 2C even in the corner bnb, much less after the proration from dustloop combo.

Actually I'm not entirely sure why, but if you OTG someone with 6C they will ground slide longer than if you hit them out of the air into the slide. So from j.214B it is impossible(as far as I can tell) to do 6C > 66 > 2C because once they touch the ground they will tech so you cannot OTG them with 6C. But with j.214C when they are sliding they are considered OTG, so if you 6C them you can dash in afterwards and still connect with 2C.

The same applies to 236B, if you do 236B > 623A > 6C while they are still in the air you won't get the long slide, but if you do 236B > 623A > 6C(hold till you barely get level 2) then you will hit them as they touch the ground and you'll get the long slide.

Though timing the 6C is easier depending on the character, holding 6C just long enough for the level 2 charge will work for almost everyone(doesn't work at all on Platinum).

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It's possible to do 6C>hop 2C for almost every situation (renka>kishuu, hotaru, etc)

The mechanic works like this:

When you hit the target, there is the in-the-air duration, and sliding duration. The total of the duration is the untech time provided by 6C.

However, for you to get to the otg portion of the effect, you must minimize the in-the-air duration. If you do not, the total untech time doesn't last long enough for sliding animation to finish, allowing your opponent to tech during sliding.

Pick any character, and hit them as close to the ground as possible (try off hotaru first as it's easier to tell, renka>kishuu takes some getting use to), and you should be able to cause sliding into otg.

The only character that you cannot do this to is Bang when he is face down (so renka>kishuu knockdown effect), since his hitbox becomes too thin at the point when you are suppose to hit him (the nail is not part of his hitbox). For all other characters, it is all possible to 6C into otg effect, although some are obviously harder than others.

Edit: Additional note, if you land full charge 6C (off hotaru at certain ranges), then there is plenty of time for otg regardless of the height you hit the target at.

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I see! I knew there was something weird about how the OTG worked for 6C but I didn't understand it fully. Thanks for explaining.

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Ah thanks, I'll give them a try, thanks! Hmmm so technically its possible to cancel j2A into hotaru near the corner, and land full charge 6C followed by corner loop? I might give that a try to extend my combos into corner. Right now I am having problems keeping my opponents in the corner, it might be more worth it spending some magatamas to do that added amount of damage for me right now.

I'll give 6D and 2D a try, but from the look of it, to combo off them without meter, these seems like the best options:

6D, sj falling 2C, 2C, corner loop or j2A, AD 2A, C.

2D, 2C, corner loop or j2A, AD 2A, C.

Need to make it a habit to super jump 2C after 6D... Its getting annoying that I end up IAD by habit after 6D catch.

Oh yes I got one more question, what exactly is fuzzy guard? I don't play GG so I have no idea, I went to read up but is still confused. Am I right to say, essentially, if I do jB -> Tsubaki, and if the opponent blocks jB high and blocks low immediately, Tsubaki will catch the opponent because its an overhead, but he'll retain standing animation and properties? Is that it? Whats the point of it then?

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Fuzzy guard is used to create difficult to defend overhead when normally it isn't possible. You are not going for a tsubaki hit, you are going for a jB hit, off either 5B or jB.

Based on the questions you asked, don't worry about that for now. You have other execution issues you have to fix first, and I highly doubt you will be playing anyone that would require higher level mix-ups.

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Okay, I have observed a certain instance a few times. I am sure many of you have also seen this. After say, a blocked Lotus(Renka), and you do a successful catch directly after, you do NOT get a star for this. I attribute this to the fact that Haku's meter stops after a 2mag+ attack and so meter gain is, apparently, impossible. Doesn't this fly in the face of what they were trying to do with counters? I find this to be perplexing. Am I correct in assuming that is the case?

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Your automatic meter gain is completely stopped and you only gain 25% of the heat you would normally gain from other sources. As such:

  • Drive Counters: 1/4 of a magatama (3.125%)
  • Instant Blocks: ~1/17 of a magatama (0.75%)
  • Attacks: .25(Damage x Situation Rating [if the attack hits, is blocked, etc.] x .3 [Character Rating])

Hakumen has the best meter gain per attack in the game.

Secondly, I believe they are trying to lead Hakumen into the "the best defense is a good offense" role. He has delayed cancels now to keep his pressure safe without meter in order to keep the opponent locked down in order to build said meter. Hakumen isn't the type to sit there and turtle. He's the type of character that will make you lament fighting him, lock you down, and make you accept your inevitable fate of losing.

Use your normals, lock them down, IB or use your counters offensively between holes if your opponent tries to exploit them, make them fear them fear doing anything.

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Ported over from the vid thread:

Maybe because the matchup is ass. But that's me, haven't been exposed to many hazama's.

I believe Haz might just be Haku's worst matchup in CS2. Whenever I fought a Haz, it was very much an uphill battle. I don't know what changed (I think his chains got sped up), but I believe it's now an uglier matchup than it was in CS1. Dare I say worse than playing Ara?

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Ported over from the vid thread:

I believe Haz might just be Haku's worst matchup in CS2. Whenever I fought a Haz, it was very much an uphill battle. I don't know what changed (I think his chains got sped up), but I believe it's now an uglier matchup than it was in CS1. Dare I say worse than playing Ara?

It's probably because Hazama still has higher priority, too. In a normal jab fest Hakumen will lose out overall, and once hazama gets in, it's kind of hard to get out of that pressure until reset, and that's only if he doesn't get corner oki. I wouldn't say it's that much harder, though; it's easier for Hakumen to lock Hazama down now since snakes regen got nerfed and specials lose out more often as long as you get the timing. It's just that it's easier for both sides to get pummeled immediately now instead of infinite snake-and-balls showdowns.

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Your automatic meter gain is completely stopped and you only gain 25% of the heat you would normally gain from other sources.

When is this supposed to happen?

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You mean when Hakumen is comboing? The mention of counters confused me since you wouldn't be able to use a counter after a super or 2 star special.

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No. Whenever Hakumen does a 2+ mag or super, auto-gain is stopped for X frames. If you do a D counter during that time (if you're able to, i.e. if you dropped your combo immediately after a 2+ mag move/was mixing up with 2+ mag move which got blocked, and the enemy did a move and you caught it with D), then you won't get a full star, you'll get 25%.

Try it out in training, you'll see what I mean. Set the dummy to block everything, do a renka, then make the dummy immediately attack you afterwards, and counter with a D.

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After any use of 25% or more of your meter (Two stars or more), auto meter gain is stopped for 3 seconds and any heat you would gain during the time period is reduced by 75%.

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I did not post this in the matchup forum because this information is still gray to me.

Anyway, how does Hakumen handle Arakune practically?

A few things I'm aware of:

  • - Fever mode is the biggest factor in the odds of winning this matchup.
  • iad jC is really good at punishing Ara from randomly jDing.
  • Kishu also moves past jDs
  • -- How do you chase Ara safely if that's possible? His backstep is really good at escaping stuff.
  • j2A is probably Haku's best friend against Ara's 6D.. a near free orb is something alot of the cast can't do.
  • Counters are good especially against blockstrings but as they are... counters they have their share of risks in dealing with Ara's blockstrings and stuff. Still valuable against jB happy ones.
  • Ara with homing cloud probably is the worst one to face since it's forcing Hakumen to move in a certain way Ara can intercept.
  • I know locking Arakune is probably the main aim of this matchup. Still he has pretty weird hitboxes in his stuff to make this harder than alot of characters.

--Fever mode

In the event you get an orb from something while in fever mode Haku is pretty well protected from bugs. Of course in fever mode Ara can simply.. not hit buttons to feed the orbs. It's still technically the better way to avoid the bug stuff than countering which is risky and does no jack to an Ara going 2D + bug spam.

Seems like.. blocking well is the way out.

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I just spammed 6B against jD in CT and CS. I assume that would still work here (Don't do it if he is directly above you, obviously).

As for the exact approach, I haven't played Arakune frequently since CT so I can't really help out. From vids, I would say that mid range drag-it-out game would be the best approach, and don't be shy about burning meter when you get a hit in. You may not be able to chase down arakune effectively, but neither can he.

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Since this is CSII, we should be pressuring our opponents a lot(I suppose technically we were supposed to apply pressure no matter what version it was, but my playstyle was always more defensive than offensive), right? What should we be throwing out to pressure in general? It feels like since 2a is slower now, it might be more useful to throw out a few 2b as well as 2a, and not spam 2a. Also, 5a, 6a, 5a->6a, 5b are still useful, right?

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Since this is CSII, we should be pressuring our opponents a lot(I suppose technically we were supposed to apply pressure no matter what version it was, but my playstyle was always more defensive than offensive), right? What should we be throwing out to pressure in general? It feels like since 2a is slower now, it might be more useful to throw out a few 2b as well as 2a, and not spam 2a. Also, 5a, 6a, 5a->6a, 5b are still useful, right?

Yes, however the gameplan for why and what pressure you're applying depends on your meter and the matchup. I am going off of what I am taking from CS2 Hakumen so far:

  • When you're low on meter, you will want to use your range to keep the opponent out and if need be, use your delayed gatlings to lock your opponent in blockstun for any given time (with stuff like 2A > 5A > 2A > 2B > 3C) and create space. Meanwhile, you use your Drive to counter any holes in your opponent's blockstrings.
  • When you have meter, your pressure becomes a different story as you can cancel your attacks into Gurren or Renka to make them safe and possibly score a hit. Otherwise, you'll want to use it to get an opponent into the corner and keep them there. If they try to escape only to get hit-confirmed into big damage, they'll start panicking.
  • Do not resort to always pressuring your opponent as Hakumen's tools work best punishing your opponent's own attacks. Make them freak out a bit and then use Counters/Hotaru/etc. to capitalize on their mistakes.

Hope this helps. I'll be on in a few days so I'll see your reply (if there will be one) then.

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Hmm, ok, looks like I'll need to pay more attention to my meter to know when I can start doing stuff besides delayed gatlings. I've mainly been punishing opponent's mistakes (that's what I meant by defensive play) so the overview of the general flow helped out a lot, thanks.

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