[CS2/EX] Hakumen Info and Discussion

[Moblin]

Thanks very much for the info! How difficult is it to cancel on the first/last frames? +7 on block seems really good and worth practicing, but is it possible to do consistently?

[BladeOfJustice7]

but is it possible to do consistently?

With enough practice yes, try doing combos off of it. That way you'll get used to it.

[Wander]

Hello, I was wondering how safe Hotaru is on block when hopped?

What about TK hotaru? Is that safe on block? Is it better to jump or land after a blocked hop/TK hotaru?

[Sophisticat]

The move itself has an advantage on block, so TK/hop makes no difference.

About first/last frame, that's irrelevant. In the heat of the moment, you won't care where Hotaru's done so long as it hits. Practice executing the move itself consistently instead.

[BladeOfJustice7]

What about TK hotaru? Is that safe on block? Is it better to jump or land after a blocked hop/TK hotaru?

I think I read somewhere that Spark said it's not really safe.

[mAc Chaos]

Hotaru isn't safe if the guy is mashing stuff out, or waiting for it. Even if you jump cancel you're going to get hit before you can do anything else, since you have to land, unless you go right into j.D at the right time.

It's just not a free punish.

[kotokot]

"advantage value is off jump Hotaru(-3), dash Hotaru advantage at 6F or 12F (fastest or slowest hotaru) is +7F,7F or 11F for +1F, and 8-10F for 0" from cs1 frame data, i think in cs2 is same.

[Moblin]

When pressuring, what's a good tool to use against an opponent that loves to backdash out of pressure instead of jump?

[IndigoNovember]

When pressuring, what's a good tool to use against an opponent that loves to backdash out of pressure instead of jump?

I'd say a slightly delayed Gurren would work. The slight delay is there so that you don't Gurren your opponent during the invincibility of the back dash. Pretty much anything with good reach would work well I feel. I just normally use Gurren for that (when I can read/react to it that is >__> ).

[Sophisticat]

When pressuring, what's a good tool to use against an opponent that loves to backdash out of pressure instead of jump?

You can:

- Hop after them. Also sets up Hotaru.

- Gurren/Kishuu.

- Jump/Sj. in/out.

- IAD to cross up.

- Stay put.

And from there set up your atk/def.

Each option depends on the character (different backdash values... don't hop into a backdashing Tager, lol) and your playstyle.

[Moblin]

Ah, thanks for the replies!

It was against a valkenhayn. I was trying to keep him under pressure so he couldn't get the chance to set up an offense, since those fast and ambiguous mixups he can do in wolf form screw me over all the time. He was really good at knowing when to backdash out of my pressure and then jump away though.

Does Gurren ever wallbounce if you hit them at the end of their back dash?

[Spark]

It won't because the at the end of most back dashes they are on the ground.

[Moblin]

I see. I think my best option would be to try to predict the backdash and hop or kishuu forward unless I have meter to combo after gurren. Thank you

[Spark]

In Extend Hakumen's Shippu is 3+7 start up.

Also the projectile invun on 623A doesn't last till the end of the move.

[mAc Chaos]

So how much does it last, enough to use it to effectively dash through projectiles like Lambda's 5D?

[Nemesis]

Mac your hakumen play has gotta be more like this -------> then you'll be stylin XBL peeps all day long. Its all about the frame of mind~~

[SansProtocol]

So how much does it last, enough to use it to effectively dash through projectiles like Lambda's 5D?

I'll test it tonight when I go to my friend Brian's house.

[SansProtocol]

Update: it's practical farther out where it is most useful. You can react to the D sword and go through it. Up close is where you normally won't have the time or need to use Kishuu against it. TL;DR: It's practical.

[mAc Chaos]

Do you have enough time to dash in after going through it? It might be better to still just airdash over it completely.

Mac your hakumen play has gotta be more like this -------> then you'll be stylin XBL peeps all day long. Its all about the frame of mind~~

I invented style. Just check out my gold bursts.

[SansProtocol]

Do you have enough time to dash in after going through it? It might be better to still just airdash over it completely.

I didn't test that far as I didn't get to play long, will tomorrow. I do know that airdashing is better if you're the closest or around such you can be and still get hit by her D sword. However, it's better to Kishuu if you're any farther away as the recovery due to the whiff guarantees that you will at least be in her face if you don't get to connect with a hit. And I'm talking about being able to close a significant gap between Hakumen and Lambda in that time frame.

EDIT: I will try to record some footage.

EDIT2: I forgot to say that Kishuu is nice that far out as airdashing can get beat out by 6D.

[dioxideUniversa]

I took some time to lab some of CSE Hakumen's new midscreen combo paths to post in writing for anyone out there who happened to import it. This isn't at all a comprehensive list and contributions are welcome.

There may be a little more damage/corner push to milk out of some of these as my execution isn't the best. It's also possible that a couple of these could be character specific. Please let me know if there's any glaring issues!

Renka

• (3) Renka(1) -> Kishuu -> Hop -> 2c -> j.b -> j.2a -> Airdash -> j.B -> j.A -> 2c -> sj.2a -> Airdash -> j.2a -> j.C [3666/1.25]
  
• (3) Renka(1) -> Kishuu -> Hop -> 2c -> j.b -> j.2a -> Airdash -> j.B -> j.A -> 5c -> 2c -> sj.B -> j.2a -> Airdash -> j.B -> j.2a -> j.C [4076/1.75]
  
  Zantetsu
  
  
  • (3) Zantetsu(2) -> 2c -> sj.B -> j.2a -> Airdash -> j.B -> j.2a -> j.C [4151/0.8]
    
  • (4) Zantetsu(2) -> Kishuu -> 2c -> j.B -> j.2a -> Airdash -> j.B -> j.a -> 2c -> sj.B -> j.2a -> Airdash -> j.2a -> j.C [4442/1.3]
    
    Tsubaki
    
    • (3) 66 Tsubaki (non CH) -> IAD -> j.2c -> 2c -> sj.B -> j.2a -> Airdash -> j.B -> j.2a -> j.C [4177/1.1]
      
    • (4) 66 Tsubaki (non CH) -> Hop -> Kishuu -> 2c -> j.B -> j.2a -> Airdash -> j.B -> j.A -> 2c -> j.2a -> Airdash -> j.2a -> j.C [4181/1.3]
      

    Throws

    [*](1) BC -> Guren -> Hop -> 5a -> j.B -> j.2a -> Airdash -> j.2a -> j.C [2437/1.2]

    [*](1) 4BC -> Guren -> IAD -> j.B -> j.a -> 2c -> j.2a -> Airdash -> j.2a -> j.C [2617/1.5]

    [*](0) Air BC -> j.2c -> 2c -> sj.B -> j.2a -> Airdash -> j.B -> j.2a -> j.C [2937/1.4]

    [*](1) Air BC -> j.2c -> 5c -> Kishuu -> 2c -> sj.B -> j.2a -> Airdash -> j.B -> j.2a -> j.C [3183/1.4] *

    * I'm convinced you can do the standard airdash j.B j.A 2c relaunch for this combo if you delay it properly, but my execution is too poor to work with it consistently. I usually drop it at the 2nd 2c (though it is possible,) but I think you can maybe continue from there if you do an sj.B. If someone else could look into it it'd be great!

    Parries

    [*](0) 5d -> 2c -> sj.B -> j.2a -> Airdash -> j.B -> j.2a -> j.C [2385/2.0]

    [*](0) 2d -> 2c -> s.jB -> j.2a -> Airdash -> j.B -> j.2a -> j.C [2085/2.2]

    [*](0) 6d -> 667 -> j.2c -> 2c -> j.B -> j.2a -> Airdash -> j.2a -> j.C [2514/2.35]

[KirbyMorph]

Couple other midscreen combos from extend. might be off in notation/numbers a bit. doing from memory.

(2) 3c (CH), 2B, 214A, IAD, j.B, j.A, land, 5C, 623A, 2C, j.B, j.2A, air dash, j.2A, j.C

~3.1k damage

(3) hotaru, delay slightly, iad, j.c, land, 214A, iad, j.B, j.A, land, 2c, j.2a, dash, j.2a, j.c

~3k damage

(3) 6a (anti air counter), hop, 236b (1), 623a, 2c, j.b, j.2a, air dash, j.b, j.a, land, 2c, j.2a, air dash, j.2a, j.c

~3.4k dmg

[WallJumpMan]

jump b is overpowered

just saying

[PrinceHyphy]

this damage scaling seems stronger or am i reading it wrong

[Sophisticat]

^ If you mean Haku's doing more dmg, then yes.

jump b is overpowered

just saying

If I could "like" this post, I would.