[CS2/EX] Hakumen Info and Discussion

[banshee]

I think the new standard may be to use jC>6C for knockdown, and jc>5C only for situations where the former cannot be applied.

Thanks for all the information you've given us so far.

j.C > 6C seems to be awkwardly hard to connect now that j.C's untech time has been reduced. I guess it's character/height specific?

[Dacidbro]

Concerning jD, it certainly gives oki, and the cross-under you guys are talking about might be possible. Cool idea.

[Dream Maker]

Thanks for all the information you've given us so far.

j.C > 6C seems to be awkwardly hard to connect now that j.C's untech time has been reduced. I guess it's character/height specific?

Actually the best way to KD remains 5C, 3C stuff after jC. It's just harder to connect than before, but after playing enough games I figured it was in fact still possible if you hit with jC while being close enough to landing. Basically this requires delaying jC enough after j2A, or if you're in corner doing j2Ax2 then air dash j2A rather than simply j2A air dash j2A in order to reduce the heigh a little bit. The only case I see 6C being useful for knockdowns is when you are too far for 5C to work.

6C's main use is about leading to destructive combos in corner. Corner combos like 5C, Renka (1), kishuu, 6C, 2C, High jump cancel, j2A, j2C, land, 2C, jump cancel, j2A, j2A, jC, land, 2C, HJC, j2A, j2A, delayed jC, 5C, 3C do about 6000 and can even top to 6800+ if you have enough meter to add a tsubaki at the beginning between kishuu and 6C.

[WallJumpMan]

^ wow so if u delay the jC at the end of the combo u shud still be able to get the 5c knock down!

thanks alot for the information

[mAc Chaos]

How much damage do you get off a corner combo like that if it's not started off 5C? Since we're not likely to land the same corner starter every time.

[Dream Maker]

^ wow so if u delay the jC at the end of the combo u shud still be able to get the 5c knock down!

thanks alot for the information

Not in every case I think, but in some cases it does help. In fact that's the same way we always proceeded to get j2A, j2C, 2C working in corner combos (delaying j2C), so going by this it's pretty logical in the end. ^^

Also regarding TK, stepped hotaru : it is actually possible to followup even midscreen. Non FC I was only able to get instant air dash j2C or jC after landing, but with FC I was able to get Hotaru FC, lanc, IAD j2C as late as possible, land 5A, jump cancel, jA, jB, jump cancel j2A, jC.

I believe it might even be possible to replace 5A by 5B and to do stuff like j2A, air dash j2A, jC, land 5C, 3C if you end close enough to the corner.

My overall impression on Hakumen is that he looks really good in this version in that he gained more versatility with 4C being special cancellable (for example 4C, guren, 3C is a good combo to gain the momentum from a succesful poke) and new gatlings. The downside is that he lost a lot of damage midscreen due to new proration values and throw not being comboable midscreen (corner combos are still awesome) but you can still do 3000ish with combos based on renka 1 hit, kishuu, enma from midscreen so it's not that bad.

The main point now to deal damage is to get the opponent in the corner though. Even if throw almost sends them there right away they have some time to escape before you can reach them. Enma combos are pretty good for this anyway if you can get knockdown.

How much damage do you get off a corner combo like that if it's not started off 5C? Since we're not likely to land the same corner starter every time.

I haven't tried everything, but for the combo I posted, without tsubaki I was able to go around 5000 with 2B starter IIRC and I suppose even starting with 2A you should be able to get not too far from 3500-4000. you might have to change the combo a bit depending on the starter though (like scrapping a j2A, j2A, jC part). I tried this combo based on one posted on the japanese wiki, and IIRC someone posted more variations. I'll see if I can find this back and share it with you guys when I'll have some time to translate it.

[ryokoalways]

Could you explain why 5C is better than 6C for knockdown purposes for cases that can be applied? The only potential reasons I can think of are either too much pushback or slide has too little otg time. Although I don't believe either could be the case, as they should be comparable to 5C, or even better.

As for for out of range of 5C, in that instance it's not worthwhile to get a knockdown, as you are not in position for a real wake-up anyways.

And you can practice new fatal hotaru j2C timing with current 6D>6C(full)>AD j2C timings. It's the same idea: get j2C hit as low as possible for 5C/2C follow-up into regular combo.

Another thing to remember is that 5A>j2A works now, so in certain situations, sacrifice some damage and use that part to cover more distance instead of the old jA>jB>etc

[Dream Maker]

I may be wrong, but I believe that at the end of long combos 5C, 3C does more damage than 6C so for that reason I figured out it would still be better to end knockdowns the old way. I'm also not sure that 6C gives that much more time for wakeup games than 5C, 3C (or even plain 5C) if the combo is long and I remember feeling some pushback when using it. Anyway I plan to have a few games today so I'll try to check that out and report back.

[ryokoalways]

3C knockdown isn't a real wake-up. 5C/6C (in theory) knockdowns give 100% advantage. I don't believe they gave 3C any additional properties to allow for guaranteed lockdown against any wake-up options.

And thank you for your efforts.

[Dream Maker]

Back from playing. I haven't really had the occasion to test the thing properly due to huge affluence at the arcade and me fighting for not losing rather than trying things. However I was able to figure out that 6C really has far less sliding time when done at the end of a long combo, but it was done too far from the corner for me to be in situation of good okizeme anyway. So I still don't know if you can have a real wake up game or not if done close enough. Sorry for that. :/

You're right about 5C, 3C not giving a good wake up game. But plain 5C still seems a superior option to me, faster so easier to land than 6C. If we can confirm that 6C's sliding time is enough to get okizeme at the end of a long combo, then it would certainly be the best option in combos where you have enough time to land it.

Back on hotaru FC combos midscreen, I tried following up with 2C or 5C after j2C with no success. I think it's not possible because you have in fact little time to air dash and land your j2C so if you want to hit with it, you can't really do it on the last moment like you would in enma combos for example. I've only been successful with 5A or 5B to pick up so far, and straigth j2A to air dash j2A after this is indeed great to get close to the corner.

[Re4L14124c]

So either way, Hotaru pretty much can't combo into other specials (unless in corner?), is that correct?

[ryokoalways]

Noted. I will have to check FC myself, as I've been told it works. At the very least, it definitely works on counter against air target.

[WolfCrimson]

Has it been said that Haku gets Magatama on successful Zanshin counter? Because he does. Can the OP update his/her post with all the changes seen so far?

[SimpleKiss]

Hakumen's Counter Assault is no longer a 6D, it's a 6A shoulder attack.

[ultimatefaust]

Hakumen's Counter Assault is no longer a 6D, it's a 6A shoulder attack.

yeah i saw this, yet another awesome buff!!

[ryokoalways]

yeah i saw this, yet another awesome buff!!

I would actually argue that it is a nerf. That was very useful and efficient in the arakune match-up. The new version isn't in any match-up.

[Contreras1991]

i have to test this hakumen to said if i like or dont like mmm

[Re4L14124c]

does the new CA/DA stun on hit (since it's 6a on ground?)?

[entnervt]

From the 2nd vid I postet in the new videothread:

(at 7:54) 66214C, 66,2C, jc,j.2A,f.j.2C, \/,2C, jc,j.2A,f.j.2C, \/,2C, jc,j.2A,ad,j.2A,j.C, \/,5C,3C <--- 4800 dmg

Very nice, since I thought I would never see a high-damage-combo again. In this vid are more interesting combos, one with a TK214B as starter and iadj.2C as follow up into stairway-combo. After being a little upset about some changes, I`m looking forward to play the new haku. His new combos look very stylish and he`s still able to deal good dmg. I must admit, I was a bit impatient seeing good players with new haku.

[Re4L14124c]

three falling 2C's in the corner, oh man, i certainly don't mind the mid-screen damage nerf since we get this.

[Warhound]

I also noticed in that vid that you can actually do a combo from FC Hotaru mid-screen.

j.214B > land > air dash > j.2C > 2C > etc.

I don't think it does a whole lot, but it's better than nothing at all.

Also I saw this:

5C > 214B (1 hit) > 623A > 6C > 2C > j.2A > f.j.2C > 2C > j.2A > air dash > j.2A ----5573 damage.

Unfortunately he didn't connect j.C at the end of it but that's nice for 3 stars.

[Re4L14124c]

for the hotaru combo, I thought he purposely avoided j.2C> 2C because the other one was better overall? j.2C>5A>j.5A>etc.

and the second combo, that's corner only, right?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S_tyOgQk6Q0

counter hit j.2C>2C>j.2A>66.j.2A(corner)>fj.2C>2C>j.2A>66.j.A>j.C

didn't think that would work.

[mjting]

I think there's also another vid from jourdai where a haku landed a 5200 combo on noel from hotaru Fc. good stuff.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xs2MXuv9Bl8

saw a j.2c 5.c enma combo for 3200. not bad for midscreen 2 stars.

[Warhound]

Yeah, Re4L14124c, the 2nd combo is corner only. 6C seems to prorate into some good damage, so that's probably the new thing we're gonna have to get used to doing.

[banshee]

for the hotaru combo, I thought he purposely avoided j.2C> 2C because the other one was better overall? j.2C>5A>j.5A>etc.

Now that's something I don't understand when I'm watching those videos. IIRC 5A > j.2A now connects. So in theory, shouldn't

j.2C > land > 5A > jc. > j.2A > ad > j.2A > j.C

be the better combo, i. e. making staircase obsolete? I'm too lazy to do the proration math but it carries your opponent much further and you have a stable knockdown if you reach the corner. What am I missing here?