[CSE] Video Discussion Mk.II

[BoogE-Man]

1. Its a unblockable reset, it doesn't mean you can't DP it, it just means you cannot guard/escape it.

It's actually DP safe. Only way to really escape it is to burst or hope the Carl screws up.

As far as it being unblockable, that's up to whether or not the Carl times it right. I still see Eesuke and Ranrebo screw up the timing quite often and the opponent manages to block it (block high, then low).

But yeah, the loop is stupid. It's like CT Carl all over again.

[soujiro seta]

Only responding to a couple misconceptions cause i'm a bit sleepy now

It's not DP safe. If they mash DP/reversal during the slight delay between j.B and 3D carl will get hit. He still has to bait and punish.

2. What difference does it make if its unblockable or not? Did you seriously blurt that out?

If it was blockable it wouldn't be AS bad as it is right now.

When Carl goes for a reset you really have to figure out when and how he is going to reset you, will Nirvana be the one to reset you? Is Carl gonna cross you up during the reset?

Is he gonna tick grab you? is he gonna bait you out?

So much stuff goes on during these resets and it being unblockable makes it all the worse.

Your only choices here is to burst/Mash reversal/Die/Hopes he drops it.

Don't even get me started on Nirvana and the load of fuck she carries.

3. It is known that Carl has a hard time with Haku, quite possibly his worst match up.

2. That applies to CS1, and not CS2. CS1 resets are combo video fodder in CS2. Nirvana doesn't have the meter. Carls aren't spamming j.2C j.B 3D because they want to, it's cause they have to. The j.2C j.B spam 3D resets into it self. In CS1 during resets you had to look out for tick grabs, crossups, and fake cross ups. All you have to worry about for this is if the carl is going to bait you or not, and all he has to worry about is if you are going to DP/reversal or not. there's no need to go for a tick throw of IAD j.2C allecan crossup during the j.2C j.B spam because 3D is the best option. It resets into itself for as little nirvana meter as possible, while yielding the highest possible damage. Grabs deal less damage, so that is a bad idea. If you IAD j.2C allecan then you have to do 5B 6B cantabile 2D vivace blah blah blah 3C j.2C etc. That's an extra 2D and you had nirvana on the whole time. Those 2 options are a waste of meter. Going straight into the j.2C j.B 3D reset is the best option.

3. Haku isn't carl's worst matchup. His counters, like j.C and 4C, are more of an annoyance than anything.

[BatousaiJ]

Hate... carl... so... muchhhhhhhhhhhhhh.

So much that it hurts.

That burst into anima grab thing is brilliant though. You don't take any burst blow back proration and given you burst during a move with a lot of recovery time, it's basically a guaranteed counter grab.

[stickystaines]

Fuck Carl

[KayEff]

Fuck Carl

Yep.

[TD]

lol

l have enormous respect for him because he's hard to play even by bb standards. think about how long he has to chase chars with awful approach, no dp, bad health and 4 primers. its all a risk, what he does. the players a carl player fights is just going to have to be 100% lame.

l mean, 80% loops can be considered bs by many, but honestly compared to something like ara who can run away from you until it gets curse, l find fighting carl to be much more of a 'dont get hit' guy that has to risk his life on the front lines just for an opening. just dont get hit, thats all there is to it. we entered an era where carl's 2a will once again kill the cast. you best run or keep bursts stocked. lf you character cant run/dodge/2d through everything, or if you refuse that mindset then... well, sucks for you!

besides that, l think we only have 2 gdlk carls in america and l doubt anyone is going to start tier whoring him out anytime soon.

[Konner]

I hate Carl, but he's tough to play consistently. I can't imagine trying to do any of the complicated things online. Props to Kyaku for turning this thread into a salt mine.

[smooshman]

...doesn't carl's defense suck ass?

[Konner]

...doesn't carl's defense suck ass?

Yes.

It's laughably bad.

[advancedNoob]

What about his slide (teleport)? How many frames is that? I see carls do that all the time. It seems like a free escape to me.

[Psykotik]

B Vivace (the slide) has 18 frames of head and body invincibility with 21 frames of recovery ( frames might be a bit different in CS2 but should be somewhere around that). There's no foot invincibility so if the opponent does a low attack while Carl does 236B, it'll end up being a CH and as a result, Carl eats a combo. It's still useful for escaping pressure if used correctly but it's not exactly a "free escape".

[GenoWhirl]

According to CS2 frame data it's 1-30 frames of invul now...woah :U

[pktazn]

I hate Carl, but he's tough to play consistently. I can't imagine trying to do any of the complicated things online. Props to Kyaku for turning this thread into a salt mine.

*reads through the last three pages*

Yup

[BatousaiJ]

Oh hey, I didn't know about feet vulnerability on Carl's 236B.

That's very helpful... more reason to mash that 2A when you've got that Carl on the corner.

As for the saltiness, don't get me wrong- while I dislike Carl greatly, I can very much appreciate good play and skill that's shown by exceptional players.

[KayEff]

Vivace isn't projectile invulnerable either, so if your character has a projectile meaty (like Ragna's Dead Spike for example) he/she can use that to make Carl respect pressure.

[Jourdal]

I think i said this somewhere else but, everyone hates everyone in this game.

It's always the same pattern, character is under the radar or only "slightly" hated, then someone who takes the character to, or close to their potential comes along for a couple video's and suddenly salt everywhere.

People were bitching about makoto and Noel from the get go...but shit went into overdrive when Goro bodied the YT peoples Champ Kaqn, or when R-1 was trolling people in tachikawa. Flavor of the week now is carl since arguably the best carl went and beat some overrated players lol. Jin somehow dodged all this, his S tierness doesn't lie in damage maybe thats why.

[Airk]

Vivace isn't projectile invulnerable either, so if your character has a projectile meaty (like Ragna's Dead Spike for example) he/she can use that to make Carl respect pressure.

Are you sure? I thought projectile invulnerability was different - i.e. a move with projectile invulnerability is immune to ALL projectiles regardless of what other attributes they have, but a move without projectile invulnerability can still avoid projectiles based on their attributes.

I admit I've never tested that though.

Edit: Oh, and Dead Spike isn't a valid test, because it HAS Foot attribute anyway, so even if it weren't a projectile, it would hit. Something like Spark Bolt or Hishouken should whiff on a move that's only vulnerable to Foot attacks though.

[LunaKage]

I think i said this somewhere else but, everyone hates everyone in this game.

It's always the same pattern, character is under the radar or only "slightly" hated, then someone who takes the character to, or close to their potential comes along for a couple video's and suddenly salt everywhere.

People were bitching about makoto and Noel from the get go...but shit went into overdrive when Goro bodied the YT peoples Champ Kaqn, or when R-1 was trolling people in tachikawa. Flavor of the week now is carl since arguably the best carl went and beat some overrated players lol. Jin somehow dodged all this, his S tierness doesn't lie in damage maybe thats why.

Jin hates himself so you don't have to.

[advancedNoob]

Good info, thanks for exposing his weakness during teleport.

Carl sux, but he is unpopular. You'll rarely face his "1 jab to victory" nonsense. Oh and quite a few people saw his bullshit way before those Kyaku matches.

What's wrong with Jin? He is top, but not broken top (at least imo).

[KayEff]

Are you sure? I thought projectile invulnerability was different - i.e. a move with projectile invulnerability is immune to ALL projectiles regardless of what other attributes they have, but a move without projectile invulnerability can still avoid projectiles based on their attributes.

I admit I've never tested that though.

Edit: Oh, and Dead Spike isn't a valid test, because it HAS Foot attribute anyway, so even if it weren't a projectile, it would hit. Something like Spark Bolt or Hishouken should whiff on a move that's only vulnerable to Foot attacks though.

If a move does not have projectile invulnerability, then all it comes down to is hitboxes.

I actually don't know if Vivace is actually projectile invulnerable, but I'm guessing since the frame data didn't specify it, it should be the case.

[BatousaiJ]

I think i said this somewhere else but, everyone hates everyone in this game.

It's always the same pattern, character is under the radar or only "slightly" hated, then someone who takes the character to, or close to their potential comes along for a couple video's and suddenly salt everywhere.

People were bitching about makoto and Noel from the get go...but shit went into overdrive when Goro bodied the YT peoples Champ Kaqn, or when R-1 was trolling people in tachikawa. Flavor of the week now is carl since arguably the best carl went and beat some overrated players lol. Jin somehow dodged all this, his S tierness doesn't lie in damage maybe thats why.

It's like traffic.

It's always there but you don't always get caught up in it.

But when you do get caught up in traffic, it's pretty natural to complain nonchalantly about it.

Happens.

No big whoop.

[smooshman]

Jin somehow dodged all this, his S tierness doesn't lie in damage maybe thats why.

I think it's because people don't understand what makes him top tier.... even I don't

if I had to guess... 6A

lol blAzblue

well and better mixup and oki/ice oki.

[Moy_X7]

I think it's because people don't understand what makes him top tier.... even I don't

if I had to guess... 6A

lol no

One of the few characters that actually does damage mid-screen, decent mix-up, decent corner damage, combos ending on knockdown from anything and everything, defensive options, fair amount of health and primers, good normals, etc.

lol I just noticed that Litchi can get 4.4K+ off her DP. I'm hoping that the DP can only be followed up on CH, otherwise I'll have to really, really respect that DP and bait it as often as possible.

[advancedNoob]

I only dislike that he can cancel any normal into 6A and RC throw in corner can deal 5K damage, other than that he is a perfect character.

[Jourdal]

Pretty much what moy says. Noel feels..."clunky" so to speak, Makoto doesn't...fuck i can't find the words. Jin however flows like fucking water when you play as him. His midscreen damage doesn't feel like it took a hit at all. A basic 5B seka combo gets you 2.8 or so w/ knockdown off with little effort. As well as some property changes (jesus christ CH ice arrows into DP loop for 5K is just sex)

Still retains his Jack of all tradesness too

EDIT- RC throw into advanced DP loop does 5K? fuck i have to go try that i forgot...

I only got 4.4 from it

he can't do shit after the 6A w/o meter.