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Kyle

[CS2] Carl Clover Tactical Discussion/Questions/Help

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Everyone can talk about lthe potential of J.C and than see how linear it makes him.

J.C- KD only emergency tech

[J.B, J.2C]xN

3]D[ - one stop shopping, the wal-mart of Carls arsenal

ZZZZZZzzzzzz

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Its all about how you look at 3D. You see the thing was Carl didn't have good oki. So you would in CS1 you either ended the combo with a techable knockdown and try to guess where your opponent was gonna tech (which is obviously unreliable), or you would end the combo with something that would send the opponent flying away from you.

Now that we have the new 3D we have better oki option. Its an option that you would be crazy not to use. This is why Carl looks like a one-trick pony, because Carl players are using as and ender everytime. Lets face it 3D IS A BUFF!!! We've got better oki than CS1 carl. And better oki then some characters in CS2. The only problem is that its our only good oki option. Only a few characters like Ragna have more than 1 good decent oki option.

So be merry about that. But you can all complain about his reduced damage. I won't blame ya. Although is damage is improving slightly.

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OMG I love this character. I'm looking at a stream right now. The combos and setups he has are really cool:

If Nirvana is right behind carl he can do 5B - 6B - cantible - air combo - nirvana does volante - j.C (to send the opponent into volante) Unfortunately volanted barily missed but I would have loved to see how that combo would have finished.

also

I'm seeing a carl player do j.C 3d and land on the opponent go into Carl's new jump loop ie. j.2C -5B xN

Carl is still as creative as ever.

EDIT: Cantata combos off of 5B and 6B STANDING!!! Man the carl players in these streams are great.

http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/11648201

http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/11647633

http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/11645737

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rotflmao kyle. I actually agree with you. CS2 carl is looking hella boring. Solo combo into 3D into [j.2C j.B] x n into 2D unblock.

At this point, I'd rather lose the 3D oki if they gave him back his CS1 meter. I don't even care about the damage anymore. I'd lose the oki if he got the meter back to be creative again :/. 3D oki isn't even that good since her meter is so small. You are forced to abuse 3d [j.2C j.B]xn to maintain her meter.

I really don't see myself playing CS2 carl that much. The creativity he had has been reduced to revolve around the 3D [j.2C j.B]xn gimmick. The character with the most freedom in blazblue has become a one trick pony.

EDIT

I also noticed that the amount of stun on CH 5C has been greatly reduced. Even if you're 2ft away your opponent will recover in time to block 5B.

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Wow, if you can do an air combo, volante, hit them into volante with JC, land and do another air combo, that is f'ing sick. I'm anxious to see if that will actually combo now. Even if you can't I imagine you can get some tricks if they tech of the volante.

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A lot of stuff

I can't agree more with most of what you said here. I originally picked Carl for the creativity offered (even though CT's creativity was just 'get them into claptrap')

CS2 Carl seems a lot like CT Carl, you have to abuse the properties of a couple moves in order to do damage, rather than CS where you were able to abuse the fact that there were two characters that could work together.

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IMO, he'll be just as fun to play. It's way too early to be giving up on him so soon. It's gonna take a while before he's being played to his full potential again. Like in those streams that Zoogs put up, I think new stuff like Cantible, air combo, JC into Volante could lead to some interesting stuff. First I was thinking Volante hit, then continue comboing back into the air. Now I'm thinking knock them into Volante and summon Nirvana on the way down. Now if they air tech you can Brio, Vivace A for a crossup, maybe Vivace A, 6A, or an immediate air throw. Maybe a combination like, air tech, vivace A, 6A, brio, Vivace A to make them have to change blocking directions. That could be nasty close to the corner. Also if they don't air tech you should be in position for a 3D to continue pressure. Now that's all major speculation, we just have to wait and see.

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Seriously guys how can Carl's new volante juggle combo not be hype?

It sounds like Carl not having a decent combo ender is creative but Carl having an ender that gives him decent mixup and oki is not. Besides in CS1 the combo ender was always 8D...

Nirvana uses more energy now sure but Carl is obviously doing a lot of damage despite it with his mixups. His combos are just as cool and his mixup is still strong. Creativity has not gone anywhere.

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OMG I love this character. I'm looking at a stream right now. The combos and setups he has are really cool:

If Nirvana is right behind carl he can do 5B - 6B - cantible - air combo - nirvana does volante - j.C (to send the opponent into volante) Unfortunately volanted barily missed but I would have loved to see how that combo would have finished.

also

I'm seeing a carl player do j.C 3d and land on the opponent go into Carl's new jump loop ie. j.2C -5B xN

Carl is still as creative as ever.

EDIT: Cantata combos off of 5B and 6B STANDING!!! Man the carl players in these streams are great.

http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/11648201

http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/11647633

http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/11645737

Dude.. i don´t know if they were good with Carl, but seriusly is SAD seeing Carl loose against Tager that way.. so damn sad..

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There's a difference between people getting creative with Carl's moves and making new combos, and being able to play Carl creatively. I personally was talking about the latter which I assumed is what soujiro was talking about too.

CS2 seems too much like the combos being worked on are to get around the issue that Nirvana is too easy to kill, rather than using Nirvana to supplement Carl's attacks. Since you're not able to use Nirvana freely, you have to focus more on maximizing your Carl combos rather than Nirvana shennanigans.

I'm not saying I won't play him in CS2, it just seems like he'll be less fun for me.

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Carl is using Nirvana as much as he can in a combo. The only combo I'm seeing that even remotely is concerned with conserving Nirvana's meter is his new jump loop. But that is only a secondary reason to even use it.

We can all agree that because of her meter usage Carl has to stop his offense and defense sooner than normal. But come on, the matches I'm watching are showing that he's still effective despite that.

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What the heck man?!?!? Half-the cast does not rape Carl semi-freely. People be exaggerating too much.

Vids are showing otherwise.

Too much effort for lackluster damage. Ada's gauge don't help either.

Meanwhile, prove us wrong. I'd gladly see the light at the end of the tunnel. :toot:

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I"m here Zoogs. ^_^

I feel Carl's biggest nerf/alteration is the significantly lowered Nirvana meter. It's so low that people are forced to play Carl and use Ada to approach/oki. Oki, is STRONG, but very very rinse and repeat. The new optimized combos will be solo carl mix-ups that go to Cantible, full air combo, J.C~3]D/Volante: Mix-up, Cantible, full air combo, J.C~3]D/Volante: Mix-up, Cantible, full air combo, J.C~3]D/Volante: Mix-up, Cantible, full air combo, J.C~3]D/Volante: Mix-up,Cantible, full air combo, J.C~3]D/Volante: Mix-up...

Don't get me started with [J.B, J.2C]xN. ZZZZZZZzzzzzz They took his jump loop away, now it's standardized for everyone...

is 8]D[ UB? I saw it took primers, but me "grounded" now. technically we can get guard breaks for jump traps, but get this:

1- Air guard breaks cause wall bounce = hard shitty follow-ups for Carl. We all know how hard FCH J.B combos are to maximize.

2- 80% initial proration: This is compared to CS1 with 102% initial proration. Sucks

3- Lowered nirvana meter, id we do spend the nirvana meter to break guard primers, we will not have much left for good DMG and oki afterwords, unless she was full health and positioned well from the get go.

They hacked away at my 8]D[ options, Jump Loop options, long combos with mulitple nirvana moves, most of my CS1 resets. All i get in return is a better Carl..

At this point why play Carl? What advantages does he bring to the match that other characters don't? Nirvana.. pssh she's too weak to USE or rely on, she's a gimmick.

I hope I am wrong and will give CS2 Carl my best in the labs to come up with his potential....

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I'm sorry but it still sounds like bad oki is better than Strong Oki because 3D comes off as repetitive.

3D is our new 8D (nobody was complaining about how 8D was a repetitive ender). I guess since 8D caused a knockdown it create a nice pause and thus didn't seem alike a rinse and repeat thing for Carl. But with 3D it just keeps things going. This makes Carl's momentum a lot better than in CS1.

Yes I am disappointed about Nirvana's lack of meter. Its smaller than I would like, but Carl can still accumulate a lot of damage with what he's got. He's got new resets that are just as effective as CS1.

Like I said before I'm not trying to say that hes better. He definitely is not as good but people here are saying that he's going to be low tier. I'm not convinced he will be.

He's can still get 3k in his air combs and he's still using 3 of nirvana's moves in a single combo. People are complaining about his ability to not do his long combos but how many Carl players in this forum can actually do them? In CS2 we're getting easier combos. Somebody should be celebrating. I'm gonna miss his CS1 combos though, they will probably always be my favorite.

I had more to post but I'm too tired.

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There's a difference between people getting creative with Carl's moves and making new combos, and being able to play Carl creatively. I personally was talking about the latter which I assumed is what soujiro was talking about too.

CS2 seems too much like the combos being worked on are to get around the issue that Nirvana is too easy to kill, rather than using Nirvana to supplement Carl's attacks. Since you're not able to use Nirvana freely, you have to focus more on maximizing your Carl combos rather than Nirvana shennanigans.

I'm not saying I won't play him in CS2, it just seems like he'll be less fun for me.

You hit the nail on the head marisa. Kyle also made a reference to that as well.

I"m here Zoogs. ^_^

I feel Carl's biggest nerf/alteration is the significantly lowered Nirvana meter. It's so low that people are forced to play Carl and use Ada to approach/oki. Oki, is STRONG, but very very rinse and repeat. The new optimized combos will be solo carl mix-ups that go to Cantible, full air combo, J.C~3]D/Volante: Mix-up, Cantible, full air combo, J.C~3]D/Volante: Mix-up, Cantible, full air combo, J.C~3]D/Volante: Mix-up, Cantible, full air combo, J.C~3]D/Volante: Mix-up,Cantible, full air combo, J.C~3]D/Volante: Mix-up...

Don't get me started with [J.B, J.2C]xN. ZZZZZZZzzzzzz They took his jump loop away, now it's standardized for everyone...

Exactly. The only combos you have to know for CS2 are

[Midscreen: starter into cantabile - 5C/6B j.B j.A j.B dj.B dj.3C]D[

Corner: starter into cantabile - 5C/6B j.B j.A j.B dj.B dj.C brio 5C j.B dj.B dj.3C]D[

Then you proceed to follow up both combos with [j.2C j.B]xn as you're falling]xn That is carl's CS2 gameplan in a nutshell. I'm seeing more variety in CS2 ragna at this point. I'm sorry if you main/sub ragna and feel offended by that sentence. The problem i'm having is that you have no choice but to play that way. You can't say "I'll try and play differently", cause if you even deviate from that gameplan nirvana will run out and you will lose.

is 8]D[ UB? I saw it took primers, but me "grounded" now. technically we can get guard breaks for jump traps, but get this:

1- Air guard breaks cause wall bounce = hard shitty follow-ups for Carl. We all know how hard FCH J.B combos are to maximize.

2- 80% initial proration: This is compared to CS1 with 102% initial proration. Sucks

3- Lowered nirvana meter, id we do spend the nirvana meter to break guard primers, we will not have much left for good DMG and oki afterwords, unless she was full health and positioned well from the get go.

Yeah, air guardbreaks are completely worthless for carl. Not only is nirvana not going to be in the right place, you'll have to settle for a laughable IAD j.2C allecan 5C j.B j.A j.B dj.B dj.C. Miniscule damage and so much meter wasted, assuming nirvana didn't die in your attempt to guardbreak. Even if she didn't break she'll be damn close to empty. So you settle for crappy damage with nirvana almost dead. Even if she were miraculously in the right place, as kyle said, you wouldn't have the meter to use her for that loltastic 1.8-2.2k damage or oki afterwards. So it's a lose lose situation for him no matter how you look at it.

They hacked away at my 8]D[ options, Jump Loop options, long combos with mulitple nirvana moves, most of my CS1 resets. All i get in return is a better Carl..

That's right. No more combos with multiple nirvana moves anymore. All those videos: Ambivalent world, high fired combo carl course, etc are all worthless for CS2. Not only is the fact that he's averaging 1.8-2.2k and MAXING OUT at 3k laughable, but because of how small her meter is his entire game is 10x weaker.

At this point why play Carl? What advantages does he bring to the match that other characters don't? Nirvana.. pssh she's too weak to USE or rely on, she's a gimmick.

I hope I am wrong and will give CS2 Carl my best in the labs to come up with his potential....

Correct. That's exactly what I told Akiro in the Tactical discussion thread. Why use him when everyone else is so much better? I'm seeing noel/mak/jin/lambda/etc getting huge damage off random things. They don't rely on a meter source for offense/defense/damage. He has nothing to offer right now. Carl's game opens up once you've hitconfirmed, but you don't have the meter to zone/approach, sandwich, pressure, hitconfirm, and attempt resets or go for big dmg. She'll run out in your attempt to take her across the screen.

Nirvana has practically become a tool that you turn on every now and then. As kyle said, she's only used to approach (even his approach is weak now) and for oki (which is also weak cause you don't have the meter to pressure afterwards).

Marisa and kyle practically summed up what I didn't clarify in my first post:

Everything you attempt to do (such as coming up with new strats) will revovle around how little meter she has, and because of this you will have to revert to a (linear) playstyle that maximizes her meter for the most (loltastic) damage. This new playstyle will have to be one that revolves around a loop ([cantabile -j.C kd-3D-[j.2C j.B]xn-reset-hitconfirm]xn) that can be recycled over and over again. Any deviation from this loop, ([cantabile -j.C kd-3D-[j.2C j.B]xn-reset-hitconfirm]xn ground loop - reset - ground.....) will put nirvana to sleep. The loop is also based on the ideal that every time you attempt a reset your opponent doesn't block/avoid it and you hitconfirm (which we all know isn't going to happen), so as to limit any further need to pressure and further waste her meter.

That's why [every hitconfrim goes into cantabile into j.C kd into 3D into [j.2C j.B]xn into reset attempt into hitconfirm into cantabile into j.C kd into...]xn, all the while you're averaging 1.8-2.2k. Also, you better hope that your opponent isn't decent at blocking, cause if they even block 1 of your reset attempts nirvana will break soon after, and you better be ready to "pressure" with solo carl. lol, learn those 5A 2A 5A 2A 5B 2B 5C "pressure" strings.

Kyaku already switched to platinum, and I don't blame him. If you want to win against competent opponents, Carl is not worth it in CS2. I too will mostly be playing plat as I don't like his new rinse wipe repeat gameplan, tacked in with the frustration of not having enough meter and dealing lackluster damage when I do get in. I'll still come here to try and help out, but I don't think anything will be discovered to improve his game. Her meter isn't going to get better over time. Everything will always revolve around her meter, and because of this he will have to be linear.

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Its starting to make much more sense now that I've seen videos. [j.2c j.b]xN is pretty much his damage dealer, and you're going to need Nirvana to keep resetting it.

: ( Im afraid Im going to main Plat too, Im not giving up on Carl, but Im taking a break from him in CSII.

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Cantible is guranteed now and completely untech. This helps with solo Carl combos.

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