[CS2] Carl Clover Tactical Discussion/Questions/Help

[Isuyaru]

Haven't seen anyone try the charged version yet, so I don't know, but I would guess that it still staggers on ground hit and floor bounces on air hit.

[JG]

I still cant see if Carl is going to become a good char A tier or a normal one B or C tier.

I need to watch more matches with Carl... Come on Eesuke, Ranrero or Kyaku, pick Carl and show us what he can do in SEX

[Afro-Demon]

I highly doubt C. There are some characters who got hit pretty hard this time around. I hear a lot about Litchi being terra bad now. My guess is B tier so far, but he is still looking like he's on the lower half of the cast this time. Not that he's bad, but others are just better. Of course, it's only been a week, more time is needed for someone like Carl to learn all his new options. I can see a lot of old Carls switching to Relius in the end though. He's literally like Carl, but with better Doll health mechanics, good movement, about 11k of health, 5 primers, doesn't require negative edge/doesn't need to do anything to get the doll to move, safe/ish jump ins cuz the doll has aerials, and stupid good damage in the corner. Honestly, Relius is gonna probably be the CS1 Valk of this game, calling it now. I think the one thing that Carl has over Relius is that we have Brio and better midscreen damage/reset potential. That's seriously it.

[Rishtopher]

^Hate to admit it but that's a really accurate analysis. Honestly, even I'm tempted to switch now. He's like everything I wanted in Carl, but a different character. If I don't switch to Relius, I'll still sub Carl. I think it's that Relius looks more fun to play and you have to work way less hard to get the same (if not more) damage. Plus his unblockables look way easier to setup too.

One thing that I also really like is that you can combo into Relius' astral easily. Carl's is completely unblockable, but with his health, you can get easily killed unless you have a good lead. Also it doesn't work on people who can pretty much fly (Rachel, Hazama, Valk). At this point, I almost feel dumb if I don't switch... Well, I'm gonna wait til Carl's new gimmicks happen I guess.

[Mascarpone]

I'll probably play both. Long like the shota shorts tho.

[Afro-Demon]

I wonder if they buffed his astral this time around. It's been useless since like forever. If they just gave it some more range it would actually be considered useful and a threat. Doubt it'll happen, but I'd so love it to be so. 6C stagger is nice to have, but I'd much rather have a good 5C again. By the way, anyone know if they kept the fuoco buffs from the loke test? I'd like to see how that move turns out. Could turn into decent corner carry if it works like I think it does. Oh well, all I'll do is hope for something good to show in the coming month and if not, pray they make anima a command grab in the next one.

[JG]

In the end, i suppose that we all loose hope for Carl in bbcSEX. I will main Relius i guess....

[Akira-Shiro]

Dont speak for everyone cause even tho relius look bad @ss...... carl will forever be my fav ^-^ so long as he got that magic hat.

Also 6c doent stagger i believe it was removed... either that or the amount of time you need to charge is extremely low

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SvzIgE9WSqI

01:40

[Rishtopher]

That doesn't look that bad I guess, kinda wish I could see some more gameplay of him though. Someone let me know if I'm wrong since I don't know any of the Japanese player's names; did a lot of Carl users switch to Relius? Like Carl footage was pretty rare already, but now I get the feeling that a lot of Carl's actually starting playing Relius to try him out.

Also, I've been thinking about this and since my interest in BlazBlue is mostly story-driven, I'll main Carl as long as he remains my favourite character personality wise. Relius is cool, but I can't relate to that evilness lol. Also, Shiro is right, that hat is cool :P

One more thing...I'm starting to think that Carl may not be human...Like, Relius is over 100 years old and given his personality and stuff, I feel like it would have been really weird for him to have a legitimate wife and kids. I feel like Carl might have been some kind of pet project that Relius got bored of and abandoned. Maybe like a clone or something. Ada and Ignis could've been the same(earlier prime field devices?), but perhaps they were more willing to act on their creator's wishes (to become part of the Nirvana and Fluctus Redactum: Ignis respectfully)? Sorry, I'm replaying the story mode and I'm just trying to kill time til I can play Relius' story and hopefully get some background and him and Carl. I actually think they're the most interesting characters in the game.

[Zoogstin]

Carl looks like he's going to be fine. Haven't we all learned to stop being so pessimistic after every revision of Carl?

[The Noble Clap]

Carl will never be bad as long as 2D is an overhead that bounces and 6B is a low.

[The Noble Clap]

Carl will never be bad as long as 2D is an overhead that bounces and 6B is a low.

[Afro-Demon]

I never said Carl would be bad. I just wanted certain moves to have some buffs. Is it too much to ask for a useful astral?...Relius is over 100 years old? Missed that in the story mode.

Also, another thing I forgot to mention why Relius is kinda gdlk. Most of his doll moves don't have a half a year's worth of start up. The only slow ones he has are the overhead, the low, and the one that teleports behind the opponent. Carl's only fast ones are Brio and Volante.

Looking at both of their characters though, it seems they are both shadow characters with different playstyles in mind, so I like it so far. Carl acts more as a zoner/spacing character, while Relius has better RTSD qualities. It'll be interesting to see match between them. And that brings to mind...why haven't we seen one of this match up yet?

Edti: After looking around the other forums, it's quite possible he'll still end up really high on the list. More than half the cast are suffering from significant damage nerf's mid screen while we can still chug out roughly 3k per combo plus reset. Raw damage might be what keeps us viable. The only characters who still do good mid screen damage are Relius, possibly Bang and Makoto cuz of their new shenanigans, and a couple others who didn't get nerfed that bad like Lambda, even though her good mid screen requires either 214D or 214A air hit.

[soujiro seta]

Wow, I haven't been here in forever. I just watched a few vids. Not much carl play though

It's like arc listened to everything I wanted. He has returned back to his CS1 reset style gameplan now. Hopefully no loop pops ups that destroys his game plan again. I guess that means we can revive the reset thread?

It's no surprise there aren't that many carl vids, most of the carl player probably don't remember any resets.Once their CS1 memory comes back, I don't see how carl will be stopped.

I would for them to do 2D/4D/volante combos to see how much damage they do. I just like how nirvana actually has meter now, and we can attempt resets and be offensive again. I love "lol I resetted you from 100 to 0" carl. It was always fun to see if people could escape my reset game.

In the vid I saw of carl he looks strong, really solid (maybe S tier this time?). Also, why is anima still useless? Why can't arc just give it super armor and call it a day? Yes it could be overpowered, but that's what testing and balancing via dlc are for. Just give us carl mains one iteration of a useful anima.

Lol, the tager matchup is going to be funny. Tager is actually dangerous this time around. Once you get magnetized, it looks like gameover for carl. He had trouble being magnetized before, CSEX tager deals quite a lot of damage off his gadgeto finger guessing game this time around. Which doesn't bode well with 9500 health.

Speaking of which...RELIUS :drool:. I love his RTSD style. My goodness. I also like how you don't have to worry about ignis placement like nirvana. You just get up in DAT @$$ and go to town. Ignis recharges fast too. Carl's reset game looks stronger though, maybe i'll have to see more of ignis first, but because of how carl works it's harder to block his stuff. Ignis deals more damage and just doesn't give you time to breathe. Lol, he also has a dash. You have to react faster to relius' offense though. Carl gives you more time to think, has more options, but is slower. I also love relius' evasion thing. It looks so much cooler than vivace. I will definitely be picking him up.

[Rishtopher]

I just wanted certain moves to have some buffs. Is it too much to ask for a useful astral?...Relius is over 100 years old? Missed that in the story mode.

Also, another thing I forgot to mention why Relius is kinda gdlk. Most of his doll moves don't have a half a year's worth of start up. The only slow ones he has are the overhead, the low, and the one that teleports behind the opponent. Carl's only fast ones are Brio and Volante.

I agree with this. I want Anima to be a command grab. She gets SO easily poked out of the move and it's just a normal grab? That's so lame! You can barely even get a counter grab off of it since anyone's 5A will stop it. Seriously, make it good. It can prorate like crazy for all I care, just make it useful ASW >__< His astral being useful would also be awesome. No you-have-to-be-at-a-specific-part-of-the-screen-to-hit-and-oh-yeah-you-can't-move-either-and-you-might-die please. I want him to have something you can combo into and has a scene. I think him and Arakune have the most boring (and the least useful) astrals in the game /rant

Also yeah, Relius was there in Phase 0 IIRC before the black beast appeared. He was eaten too. Also, I'm fairly certain he made Hazama's body like before the black beast was there (I have to check the short stories thread) while it was still called Kazama and hadn't merged with Terumi yet.

Also(x2), there's ONE vid of Relius vs Carl so far, and they skipped the intro :| I honestly think the match up is in Relius' favour, but I don't think either Carl or Relius were that great in this vid: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9m4b5eo9N7Y&feature=youtu.be&t=6m42s The announcer is talking throughout, so you can't hear anything >__>

Wow, I haven't been here in forever. I just watched a few vids. Not much carl play though

It's like arc listened to everything I wanted. He has returned back to his CS1 reset style gameplan now. Hopefully no loop pops ups that destroys his game plan again. I guess that means we can revive the reset thread?

Speaking of which...RELIUS :drool:. I love his RTSD style. My goodness. I also like how you don't have to worry about ignis placement like nirvana. You just get up in DAT @$$ and go to town. Ignis recharges fast too. Carl's reset game looks stronger though, maybe i'll have to see more of ignis first, but because of how carl works it's harder to block his stuff. Ignis deals more damage and just doesn't give you time to breathe. Lol, he also has a dash. You have to react faster to relius' offense though. Carl gives you more time to think, has more options, but is slower. I also love relius' evasion thing. It looks so much cooler than vivace. I will definitely be picking him up.

Autonomous R has been uploading YT vids, but only on his channel, it doesn't look like anyone's updating the thread anymore. Why do you say his reset game looks better?? It looks the same to me, but admittedly, I'm not a good Carl since I don't play him like I'm supposed to lol. I wouldn't call him S tier, but I'm thinking at the very lowest, B and the highest A. Brio's pretty fast, I think that's the only move that's better than Ignis'. Volante is good, but like, I wish it were a better/faster projectile. It has such a slow startup to actually accelerate and it takes so much meter (in CS2 I mean) =\

Honestly, the main draws of Relius to me are his dash, Ignis' speed/range and his health. Everything I wanted in Carl lol. Also Led Ley > Vivace. Led Ley being completely invincible is just so good. I don't think it's invincible to throws though, but otherwise it's pretty gdlk. Plus you can have Ignis cover you easily while you do it. DP's are nothing before Relius >:3

Disclaimer: I know I'm complaining a lot about Carl, but no, I don't think he's a bad character. I think that some things need to be tweaked so that his attacks are actually useful.

[Zoogstin]

Wow watching Carl and Relius fight is the most exciting and epic thing ever. Mad hype. It looks pretty even to me right now.

[Akira-Shiro]

O.O what were,,, iv been looking for that matchup for the past week and have found nuthing.... im trying to see that intro

PLEASE TELL ME

[Rishtopher]

lol I thought everyone had seen this already? It's been like days xD Ok, I'll keep you guys posted, I lurk DL a lot :P

Hopefully we get on with the intro soon. Someone in the Relius thread told me it was really long and that Ada and Ignis clash in it :D

[soujiro seta]

Autonomous R has been uploading YT vids, but only on his channel, it doesn't look like anyone's updating the thread anymore. Why do you say his reset game looks better?? It looks the same to me, but admittedly, I'm not a good Carl since I don't play him like I'm supposed to lol. I wouldn't call him S tier, but I'm thinking at the very lowest, B and the highest A. Brio's pretty fast, I think that's the only move that's better than Ignis'. Volante is good, but like, I wish it were a better/faster projectile. It has such a slow startup to actually accelerate and it takes so much meter (in CS2 I mean) =\

Honestly, the main draws of Relius to me are his dash, Ignis' speed/range and his health. Everything I wanted in Carl lol. Also Led Ley > Vivace. Led Ley being completely invincible is just so good. I don't think it's invincible to throws though, but otherwise it's pretty gdlk. Plus you can have Ignis cover you easily while you do it. DP's are nothing before Relius >:3

Disclaimer: I know I'm complaining a lot about Carl, but no, I don't think he's a bad character. I think that some things need to be tweaked so that his attacks are actually useful.

I said carl's reset game looks stronger because of how he works. Nirvana and carl are separated, and can be controlled in a way relius and ignis cannot. It actually feels like you are fighting 2 people at once. Nirvana attacks you, while carl crosses you up by IADing or vivace, attacks high/low, does a fake crossup (jump forward(9) then quickly IAD back), tick grab, ambiguous crossup (done by doing allegretto while on top of someones head while nirvana attacks), etc.

Ignis acts as an extension of relius (JJBA, Eddie). They aren't separated like carl and nirvana, making it hard to have a wide variety of resets.

I didn't realize how hard it was to block carl until I started playing platinum. Being a carl main helped cause I knew what to look out for, but still it was hard as heck. He can cross you up anytime, his high low crap with nirvana, his reset attempts/baits, etc is tough to read. You can also take a look at the reset/strat thread to see the kinds of things carl can do. I don't know if relius will have that much. Only time will tell.

Carl vs Relius

Wow, relius can kill carl in a few hits. I love that the guy actually attempted 4d/volante/2d combos. Thank goodness no more solo carl combos only. Match looks fun. It seems like you might have to play this matchup up the same way we play Mu, RTSD. That carl was spamming vivace, and he's lucky the relius didn't go low on his wakeup or bait it out. That teleportation behind thing ignis does will definitely be annoying in this matchup.

[Rishtopher]

[Carl Explanation]

Oh, I thought you meant he got better reset game in the change from CS2 to CSX. I was saying his reset game looks exactly the same to me, unless I'm still wrong about that?

[Afro-Demon]

Anima being a command grab does sound bullshit to be perfectly honest. Sandwich them then tick command anima from 2A> Vivace B sounds like Bang shenanigans, except we get like 4K off it + possible oki. I liked the whole super armor idea. Stops that run up>poke>run away thing every character does in CNO. I'd like our astral to be basically the same but with more range. I want it to be almost one to one and 1/2 screens in diameter. That way the opponent actually feels a need to have to the to try and rush out. I can't tell you how many times I tried to astral someone and they'd just hold to the edge of the screen because I over estimated that thing's range yet again. I swear to god the edge of that explosion doesn't even count as part of the hit box. And I say Arakune's is better than ours. His actually kinds fits him in the frightening aspect if he's both invisible and has curse. That's just death. I think I'll post all the moves Carl needs better to be the perfect Carl in my eyes at the bottom.

As for the reset game, the only way that I could see it stronger is because of Nirvana's meter not being ass now. We don't have to stop pressure and mix up just to save nee-san as much anymore, so in that regard we do have a bit better reset potential, but otherwise I say he's about the same.

Also, Led Ley looks much more ass then Vivace. Sure it has full invuln for the body, but it's free to CH on start up and mashing 5A will eat that thing cleanly, even with the system change.

Moves I want better

Viv A - make it CS1 good again.

Anima - super armor

8]D[ - CT good would be nice.

Astral - Make it a threat

Fermata - I want the game freeze to last long enough that I might be able to use it's air unblockable properties for cool resets yes please thank you.

[Rishtopher]

Anima being a command grab does sound bullshit to be perfectly honest. Sandwich them then tick command anima from 2A> Vivace B sounds like Bang shenanigans, except we get like 4K off it + possible oki. I liked the whole super armor idea. Stops that run up>poke>run away thing every character does in CNO. I'd like our astral to be basically the same but with more range. I want it to be almost one to one and 1/2 screens in diameter. That way the opponent actually feels a need to have to the to try and rush out. I can't tell you how many times I tried to astral someone and they'd just hold to the edge of the screen because I over estimated that thing's range yet again. I swear to god the edge of that explosion doesn't even count as part of the hit box. And I say Arakune's is better than ours. His actually kinds fits him in the frightening aspect if he's both invisible and has curse. That's just death. I think I'll post all the moves Carl needs better to be the perfect Carl in my eyes at the bottom.

Also, Led Ley looks much more ass then Vivace. Sure it has full invuln for the body, but it's free to CH on start up and mashing 5A will eat that thing cleanly, even with the system change.

I actually want anima to be as bullshit as possible. Seriously. Honestly, I'm just salty because I keep playing Bangs and they have so many lulzy shenanigans. His command grab does so much damage too (especially when he can RC into a combo). Like I said though, I don't care if it has a high proration or even reduced damage, I just want it it to be useful/threatening in some feasible way. I second the astral hitbox expansion. The screen edge thing is brutal. Against people who can fly, you have to keep them pressured to hit, but if you move then you screw it up (except if you have them in the corner). I agree that Arakune's is better, but it's just as boring as Carl's. When I get an astral with Carl, it's not as satisfying as if I got one with Valk/Rachel/Hakumen/Ragna/Haz, etc since it just isn't epic. That's subjective though, I guess.

Still disagreeing on Led Ley being worse than Vivace. You aren't going to be throwing it out for no reason and without cover. If you use it right, you won't get CH since Ignis has got your back (literally). Plus she's faster to command than Ada, if anything, your opponent is getting CH. Vivace loses to lows and Ada is slow on cover unless you got em in hitstun. Plus it always loses to DPs. Even if you use Vivace with purpose, it still entails more risks than Led Ley does.

Moves I want better

Viv A - make it CS1 good again.

Anima - super armor

8]D[ - CT good would be nice.

Astral - Make it a threat

Fermata - I want the game freeze to last long enough that I might be able to use it's air unblockable properties for cool resets yes please thank you.

Other than Fermata, I agree with this. I think Fermata is good enough the way it is. I only want/need Anima and his astral to be better.

[Afro-Demon]

I'm pretty sure meaties would eat Led Ley pretty well. I mean, I know Ignis is fast, but I don't think she's fast enough to beat out most meaties when Relius has to neutral tech, summon her, then attack, even with that fast punch move. It might be possible, but I still say it's a long stretch if anything.

Anyway, back to Carl. Should we start compiling an actual change list somewhere? It might be nice for those who haven't been following along and might want to know Carl's general direction as far as how he's changed, especially since it might get confused with some of the wishlist stuffs going on around right now.

[Rishtopher]

I was going with the assumption that Ignis is already summoned though lol.

I think a changes thread would be good, but I don't know how many people would actually use it... I suggested the same a while back and the response was something like "we don't have that many Carl's anyway, so we're not sure how many people it would even benefit". Admittedly, I don't know enough about the game/Carl to do it myself, like I said, my interest in mainly in the story lol. I nominate you though Afro, you seem like you're on DL enough and you seem to know a lot about Carl n__n

[Afro-Demon]

I only really get on in between games. I'm rarely here upon release for obvious reasons.

Also, how would Ignis already be summoned? If Relius is knocked down, I'm going to assume he was hit, and I'm pretty sure she disappears when he gets hit. I'm so confused.

Edit: I'll be back in an hour. Gotta show my friend how Rachel's astral is completely useless against all characters.