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Lord Knight

LK's GAMEPLAY RELATED QUESTIONS ONLY question thread

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Aww, sadface at never being able to learn LK's favorite Tsukihime character.

Is there any really good piece of general always-on advice that doesn't necessarily fall under thinking 24/7?

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I can answer the Tager half of your question.

Don't push buttons unless you know it will work or you lose.

For more info read the write up I wrote in the Tager vs Litchi thread...its very informative.

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how do you feel about the

Litchi v Haku match up

Litchi v Jin match up

BB:CS2 and it's tourney vitality

BB:CS2 and how it's going to break some stigmas about BB

BB's current guard system

BB's conversion between the current amount of IB block stun decrease and the next games IB block stun decrease; and do you think it's necessary.

:3

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Aww, sadface at never being able to learn LK's favorite Tsukihime character.

Is there any really good piece of general always-on advice that doesn't necessarily fall under thinking 24/7?

Arc and Aoko

Technically no. The main difference between a good player and a great player is just thought process. There are plenty of players who know what their characters good pokes are, combos, hitconfirm, mixup, etc, but they have such a fucked thought process that they don't get much farther than that.

How should jin and tager players approach the matchup against litchi?

This is one of Jin's worst matchups IMO. A Litchi that has a good neutral game will really make Jin players work hard. Jin's 2D isn't as viable of an option in this match as it was in CT. The biggest mistakes Jin players I play against make are:

1. They jump in WAY too deep with jB, Litchi can 5A > itsuuA or 5A > jBC > etc for free

2. They play too wildly, running around without meaning doesn't do you much good.

3. VS Daisharin. . .it's almost January, you should know by now that she can bait DP's, only do DP against it if you have meter to RC. Obviously Yukikaze is equally risky. This doesn't mean don't do it ever, but at least try to judge where your opponent is at and the risk/reward for your actions.

Tager needs to play the match patient, Litchi's rushdown/spacing game is strong and she's rewarded for hitting you out of shit. Again, I feel like the majority of Tager players can do better if they just played a bit more respectful - random wildness is better than just being wild all the time. Walking is good because she does not have an overhead that reaches full screen. When people sj > barrier at me, I just reposition myself for 6A/3C/or run away. SJ > aerial obviously loses to run away or 2C, and then if you telegraph your jump in she can do airthrow or jAA > airthrow for throw reject. So yes, walking is good. Just try to magnetize her. Tager's 5C in neutral at mid range is good because it only loses to 2B(sucks) and 3C(great). Stuff like 5B and 2C will lose free.

how do you feel about the

Litchi v Haku match up

Litchi v Jin match up

BB:CS2 and it's tourney vitality

BB:CS2 and how it's going to break some stigmas about BB

BB's current guard system

BB's conversion between the current amount of IB block stun decrease and the next games IB block stun decrease; and do you think it's necessary.

:3

1 Litchi vs Hakumen matchup depends on the player for me. Against a good player it can be a really fun, tense matchup, but against mediocre guys it's really boring and have to bait D mash all day. It's also nice to be able to jump in on him in CS (shit was fucking impossible in CT cause of 6A :/). I really hate netplay Zantetsu ;_;. Also jD's risk/reward is really fucked, so everyone is a threat, but once you hit Hakumen it gets really fun :3.

2. Litchi vs Jin is so refreshing cause it was so hard in CT. It's really nice to be able to just stomp on wild and risky play. Jin is so scary in the corner :/. Again, I think this is a match people would do better in if they played a little bit smarter instead of trying to be hype all the time. Jin players tend to get hit by the most random shit in neutral while they are running around and throwing out moves :|.

3/4. CS2 will be better for US tourney scene, a lot of people sort of just bandwagon "CS SUCKS", but they still want to play the game. A fresh version where people have hope is probably better for the majority. Like I said in the old thread, I think CS1's balance is pretty good (even though I don't obsess over balance too much), but if that's all it takes for more people to play, then whatever. As far as "BB Stigmas", good ol' 5A > 5K is just going to be replaced with 2A > 5K (good ol Makoto). Someone need's to think of one for F of G :psyduck:. The other one is that most BB players are lacking in fundamentals. . . a new game won't help that, that's up to the community.

5. BB's guard system is ass, why won't they just use a guard bar ;_;. Primer system will work better in CS2, at least. I like GG and MB's guard bar. MB was a game that I really thought couldn't work with a guard bar, and they still made it work. So far BB has just used gimmicky shit (Libra was even worse). Primer is somewhat legit in CS2.

6. It's for the better, even though it'll be weird to get used to. It's definitely a plus for characters who have pressure mixup rather than high/low stuff (sorta like Noel or Tsubaki) and will probably make people actually think more about using Barrier properly.

Are you gonna switch to another character in CS2 now that Litchi's no more broken?

If I was a Bang player, I'd definitely be switching in CS2, lol. Litchi is a sort of technical character, so I'm confidant that she'll develop into a strong character. If she doesn't, I'll switch characters. Basically, I'll play Litchi as long as I think I can win with her. This was the mindset I had in CT (I almost switched to Rachel).

Edited by Lord Knight

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GAMEPLAY RELATED question backlog from the last thread:

1) How good is Litchi's back dash and what are some punishable aspect of it.

2) How useful is mid-screen Daisharin mix-ups and why is hardly used compared to it's corner counterpart.

3) FT 10 on netplay sometime?

1 - Litchi's backstep is more or less average midscreen. Command backstep is above average midscreen, but top class in the corner. Basically, Litchi will use it to beat 2A's/lows/throws in the corner. A good way to beat it is to not use any of those options for meaty.

2 - Midscreen Daisharin used to regain control of space is extremely useful. Midscreen Daisharin used as pressure is really weak. Everyone was scared when the midscreen Daisharin vid came out, but pretty much anyone in the cast can simply IB the first hit of Daisharin and then barrier jump to escape. You can't do this to corner Daisharin because she's doing it after knockdown, leaving her free to cover the jump option. Hopefully thanks to IB having less advantage, midscreen Daisharin in pressure will be a more viable option.

3) Pretty sure it's been uploaded on nico somewhere ;D Sure

1.Any training tips beyond just grinding out combo practice (particularly for improving IB)?

2. (sort of an extension of 1.) How to improve with a lack of local comp? to be more specific, Augusta consist of me and 1 other guy, nearest comp in ATL is a 4+hr round trip drive (can go sometimes, but not often), and online is.....well its online

3.Opinions on Litchi v Brokenhayne (other than the stuff in the litchi thread, valk boards are kinda dead).

1. My personal training mode -

A - Obviously grind out combos. This includes everything from normal stuff to hitconfirms. Eventually you should get to the point where you can formulate optimal combos off whatever random hits you can get (of course, this also comes with play experience).

B - Find out the characters you'll be playing against the most (if you have IRL comp). You should know these character's movesets like the back of your hand. Set up the dummy to do common blockstrings that that character can do (this is where you can practice IB) and see what your character can do. Watching videos that have a lot of views will help because those are the videos everyone watches, so they'll likely borrow tactics from that and not dig much deeper. Later, you can mess around against characters you don't play against.

C - Play matches, then take note of whatever stood out as frustrating or difficult to deal with. Then, try to replicate those specific situations in training mode, and find answers to those. If you can pin down an answer that beats all of/a lot of their options, you're really successful.

2: You have a couple of options. First, and easiest is netplay. If you can find people with good connections, take advantage of it. Second, and a bit harder, is to travel to tournaments (specifically, regionals/majors). I'm not really sure what the South has outside of FR, so it might be tough, but if you could organize trips (one group go to wherever, then the other group comes to you), you could grind out IRL play and chill with people (best part about IRL gathering). Last, and the hardest, is to try to make a scene. The easiest way is to try to find out where some DL netplay kings lurk in your area and see if you can get them out of their caves, but that doesn't work. See http://www.dustloop.com/forums/content.php?103-Got-Hype!-Let-s-Build-It! , that does a good job of explaining it.

3. Valk is fucking annoying :psyduck:, it reminds me of day 1 CT when I didn't have an answer for Ragna's dash 5B. Litchi's neutral game is strong but hitting him out of wolf doesn't give counter hit, so his random hits > hers overall as far as damage. It's a pretty stressful match. His wolf movement isn't that scary, its his human normals that give me problems.

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How do I beat YOU?

Or at least what the hell should I be doing/looking for in the Bang vs. Litchi match-up besides "don't get hit" ?

Make it as detailed as you would like, because the Bang match-up thread for Litchi is lacking solid information.

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Thought process?! I dont know how to explain it, but you have to kind of balance it out. I think way too much when i play, and i often second guess myself but it kind of helps when i play people who do it too lol. Try to get a real grip on how your opponent thinks and how they react to situations they dont expect. Its also a matter of how low you can go (YOMI LAYER 5182397389217) against people who also read you (its amazing how few people play with legit, active thought processes concerning what their opponent will do and how they will adapt or attempt to).

You can also get a general idea of how deep someone will mix you up or read you based on how you hit them or what they did overall in other situations. But sometimes you can yomi wrong, which means you need to fuckin play moaaarrr.

For example, i played this bang at one of st1ckbug's biweeklies, and i ended up getting hit by jC after FRKZ. Why? From playing him, i saw him to be a bit better than most other bangs ive played. I felt he would expect me to DP in the opposite direction, and instead attack from the direction he was already from. So i DP'd in the normal direction, but he just crossup jC'd anyways, lol. But this may have also been my shortcoming, because i didnt really show him that i have the capacity to think beyond "lol frkz ok imma dp" because honestly, i feel that way towards alot of BB players due to the lack of active thinking, and i wouldnt really expect it from me at that point either. AND this sorta ties into my question.

How do i go about getting players who DO play the game to understand how much deeper they can be thinking?! All i really see is simple reactionary play. I never really get read aside from being so bored i just mash DP(and RC, <3Ragna) and believe me, when i play someone who actively reads me, ITS FUN. I never get that kind of fun unless i play really good people. It forces me to think on the fly with an opponent who can adapt. Any attempt in which i try to teach someone, they only really recognize a few, specific situations deeper than normal.

and yes! this is gameplay related ._.

Edited by not_lunaris

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How do I beat YOU?

Or at least what the hell should I be doing/looking for in the Bang vs. Litchi match-up besides "don't get hit" ?

Make it as detailed as you would like, because the Bang match-up thread for Litchi is lacking solid information.

some general things.

bang is stronger than litchi at neutral, dash 5B is your friend.

don't waste fullscreen nails on litchi, she can throw the staff to cancel out the nails on reaction, except dnails, which litchi plays usually super jump over.

this works every character, but don't tell the rest of america that bang's 5A isn't so godly.... (good litchi players know this)

the weakness behind 5A, is that you can't late chain, so if litchi (other characters) don't iB 5A, they can mash 2A for free because..

5A 2A- they are stuck in blockstun, so 2A doesn't come out at all

5A 5B - also stuck in blockstun, no 2A

5A 5C - results in a CH 2A

5A 6B - ^^

5A tick command grab - CH 2A

5A nothing - litchi has pressure

bang should just 6D out of daisharin for free, but he has to respect litchi's meterless oki

5B and 6A are so awesome in general so use these alot.

after litchi's 6D into stance, it becomes a guessing game, so good luck (keep 3C as an option)

unless you are really comfortable with frkz, don't do it.

if litchi goes for gay crossups, jump up and barrier that shit, because litchi players love fishing for airunblockables after it.

5B command grab is hot shit in general, if you can do it.

litchi's 6A isn't punishable unless you iB, so an alternative strategy would be to 2D her 6A/4D so that you get a free CH (plz don't mash that shit out)

don't CA jumpins (general tip) but CA is really helpful in this matchup, I would almost say that it would be better to save meter for CA, unless you know daifunka or ashura will kill.

if you see litchi kara fast fall past you, 5B!!!!!!!

Edited by huey253

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As a ragna player, is there anything that I should keep in mind for fighting litchi?

Check their neutral game.

Litchi actually has the advantage this time - but only if they know the match well. You can easily tell where they are by their neutral game. If they aren't doing things like using 5A to beat your jC/5B, 2A to beat crossup jB, using the staff launch to zone, etc, then you can just do whatever you want.

How do I beat YOU?

Or at least what the hell should I be doing/looking for in the Bang vs. Litchi match-up besides "don't get hit" ?

Make it as detailed as you would like, because the Bang match-up thread for Litchi is lacking solid information.

I've never played against me, so I wouldn't know ;D

Really though, I think that if you beefed up your neutral game, you'd fair better in the matchup. 5B is seriously the best poke in the game. Also I feel like you're too worried about me mashing. Litchi has really specific answers to Bang's pressure - I have to be looking for things in order to get out. If you really cycled through Bang's pressure options (he has sooooooo many), it'd be really tough, especially in the corner. At least, the last time we played, it looked like you were only trying to beat mashing. As far as defense goes, that has to be something you work on personally, you already know about meterless okizeme and her pressure and stuff.

On another note, if you do 5A > 2B or 2C and they didn't ib the 5A and they try to mash, you'll get a counter hit.

What's the thought process of a great player VS a good player?

At least from my perspective, great players all have their own individual mindsets that come from reflection outside the game. Good/mediocre/bad players all tend to have similar mindsets (respectively).

How do i go about getting players who DO play the game to understand how much deeper they can be thinking?! All i really see is simple reactionary play. I never really get read aside from being so bored i just mash DP(and RC, <3Ragna) and believe me, when i play someone who actively reads me, ITS FUN. I never get that kind of fun unless i play really good people. It forces me to think on the fly with an opponent who can adapt. Any attempt in which i try to teach someone, they only really recognize a few, specific situations deeper than normal.

I know, right?!

Unfortunately, all you can do is talk to them and hope that they actually think about what happened outside of the game. Keep beating on them for doing whatever mindless stuff they are doing and keep telling them to not do it/do other stuff. It's really up to the other person, you just have to push them a bit (normally by bodying them, lol).

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What's this IB conversion thing you were talking about earlier? I need details.

other than that question, I have others lol we've played before, I don't know if you recall; anyways, if you do remember, what do i need to work on? What was I doing that was unnecessary? I just realized a few days ago that I was using dash breaking WAY too much at times where it really didn't help. I also figured out that I jump too much (but I think I got a handle on that issue). Other than those things, what do i need to work on? I'm getting a stick friday so i need to learn from scratch so I won't make terrible habits like I did with pad.

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What's this IB conversion thing you were talking about earlier? I need details.

other than that question, I have others lol we've played before, I don't know if you recall; anyways, if you do remember, what do i need to work on? What was I doing that was unnecessary? I just realized a few days ago that I was using dash breaking WAY too much at times where it really didn't help. I also figured out that I jump too much (but I think I got a handle on that issue). Other than those things, what do i need to work on? I'm getting a stick friday so i need to learn from scratch so I won't make terrible habits like I did with pad.

That guy was talking about the IB nerf.

There's nothing wrong with dash braking or whatever. I think (like a lot of the other pretty good Jin's I've played) you play a bit too wild and neutral and just let yourself get hit too much, that's not good against Litchi. It's not just about doing stuff in neutral, but about doing stuff that makes sense for the matchup you're playing in neutral. This is especially important with Jin.

When you start grinding out stick, make sure to put your pad somewhere outside of reach (up on floor, in a drawer, somewhere where you have to walk in order to reach it). The less you play pad while you're learning, the better.

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What suggestions would you give a Hazama against Litchi? I know wake up Houtenjin isn't the best option in this match up cause of her DP but other then that I'm at a loss in that match.

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What suggestions would you give a Hazama against Litchi? I know wake up Houtenjin isn't the best option in this match up cause of her DP but other then that I'm at a loss in that match.

Hehe, if that's all you got on the match, you've got a ways to go.

Fundamentally, this match is actually hard for Litchi. I hate to repeat myself, but if the Litchi is lacking in neutral, you should always win. Intelligent zoning is the main thing you need to beat most Litchi's. Remember that Hazama not only has chains but has good normals. Litchi's goal is to just hit you or to safely get past your 3C.

Now, some specifics. Hazama's problem in this match is that Litchi has a variety of answers to deal with his zoning:

1 - Air IB chain (-10) > whatever aerial if you approach

2 - Ground IB chain (-5) > 5A

3 - Ground IB chain (-5) > 2C

4 - 5DD

5 - Ryuuisou

6 - Tsubame

1: Air IB chain (as in, Litchi IB's a chain in the air) isn't a problem unless you've done an air chain and try to fly in. From the ground, this is no problem. I personally try to air barrier IB (still -9). You have no reason to move if you're grounded. Her damage, if you do fly in and get hit, is low (1000-1200)

2: Ground IB chain is a problem. Flying in poorly will result in 5A(CH) > ItsuuA (approx 3.5k and you're cornered). However, Hazama does have answers. First, you can simply not fly in and keep the game at neutral. Next, if you have the extra movement option left, you can reposition yourself (this works well against DP's too). Example, do 5DD > j6DD. Alternatively, you can also try D>C, but you still run the risk of being hit. The hardest (but best) answer is approaching at an angle where you can't be hit by the 5A. Hazama's jB is good at this, but recognizing the proper angle can be difficult.

3. This is a more situational answer, because it requires you to have a good grasp of Hazama's angles of approach (like the jB example above). The risk is only moderate for Litchi (max 3k unless Hazama has meter) but the reward is great (5000+ damage, corner). Of course, just using a basic approach will work against this.

4. 5DD is Litchi's main tool to deal with zoning. It's fast, kills chains, and on counter hit leaves opponents in CH state until they hit the ground. If you've used your movement options and this clashes one of your chains, you're in trouble. Likewise, if you fly in after a clashed chain, you're likely going to take some damage.

5. Ryuuisou costs 50 meter and the reward is great. Be wary of using chains when she has 50 meter, try to get her to dump it on something else.

6. Tsubame is used if you're hovering high above her (doing something like j2DD). Be aware of it during positioning.

With this stuff in mind, some general suggestions:

Learn how to position your jB in a way that doesn't leave you vulnerable to her 5A, this is huge.

Learn how to move well with him.

Get used to looking at Litchi when you're playing, this makes learning his movement easier (you don't want to whiff a chain).

Houtenjin is risky against her not because of her dp, but how her pressure works. Save it for hit confirms, use it when you really think it'll work. Counter Assault is a safer escape option.

Get your use of normals right - I think too many Hazama's rely on 214DB against her and not enough on much safer, lower risk options like 5A or 2C. 214DB does get the job done, but she can punish it hard on whiff.

Do your best to confirm chains that aren't counter hit that hit her on the ground - you need that damage and meter!

Edited by Lord Knight

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LK, I have to say that you just might have made the single best thread on Dustloop right now. The info here is very much appreciated.

Question!

- What would you say are Litchis weaknesses when up vs. Hakumen?

The hardest thing about this matchup for me is trying to put a wedge in. If I venture to push buttons, I'll often find myself in the corner with 4k less health, and a Daisharin over my head. Am I left to having to poke until I get a hit in and/or j.D'ing an overhead?

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That guy was talking about the IB nerf.

There's nothing wrong with dash braking or whatever. I think (like a lot of the other pretty good Jin's I've played) you play a bit too wild and neutral and just let yourself get hit too much, that's not good against Litchi. It's not just about doing stuff in neutral, but about doing stuff that makes sense for the matchup you're playing in neutral. This is especially important with Jin.

When you start grinding out stick, make sure to put your pad somewhere outside of reach (up on floor, in a drawer, somewhere where you have to walk in order to reach it). The less you play pad while you're learning, the better.

I appreciate that yo. I was thinking the same thing, that I'm TOO aggressive... Jin! We must travel to an icy hell and train for innumerable nights. Once I learn stick everyone, you will be seeing a new type of jin

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My question is have you noticed everyone has better meter gain in CS2 and would you agree RC will be a norm?

Insecure Lichi players, so cute.

Ive seen enough of jin, new mach up might be platinum and noel, but the rest is sheir raping of a character if your Jin.

Ragna's...er fine i guess. Wont go into detail, id just be a :psyduck: moment

Edited by Redgale

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