BBCS1 Tier List: THE FINAL CHAPTER

[LordSpectreX]

Is this actually made by respectable Japan players? Or did someone just find a tier list on JBBS and decided to post it without context?

No implied reason. Just asking.

[Lord Knight]

It's the last community list.

[CakeWasBannedd]

that feeling existed way before sbo

this is a fine goodbye list

i meant people who don't really know what the fuck they're talking about who were trying to say that tao was a shitty gimmick character, then suddenly when tao won sbo they changed what they thought

[kenja0]

Even our best players may not have the proper matchup experience against some characters due to such a spaced-out scene.

I'm pretty sure most Japanese pros didn't even consider playing against the console characters since they didn't mean anything to the arcade scene. That's probably why a lot of them (the lesser known ones that also didn't switch mains), when CS2 came out, got stomped on by Mu and couldn't figure out how to block Makoto's 6B.

[Nakkiel]

Winning SBO does not mean your character is S tier. That would've made Jam S tier in Slash when KA2 went like 14-1 at SBO, and May S tier in Accent Core won year when Efute wrecked everyone.

Are you ever going to say why you don't agree instead of just trolling the people who don't agree with you? Or how about saying why Chou's list is so "extremely biased"? That's a pretty big conclusion when you've never even spoken to the guy.

Anyways, list is fine.

[Spirit Juice]

Are you ever going to say why you don't agree instead of just trolling the people who don't agree with you? Or how about saying why Chou's list is so "extremely biased"? That's a pretty big conclusion when you've never even spoken to the guy.

Anyways, list is fine.

I already said it earlier: winning SBO doesn't make your character go S tier, or even go up in ranks in tier lists. A lot of people (read: most of Dustloop) see Tsujikawa perform well at SBO and are wow and amazed at Taokaka... even though Taokaka has pretty much been doing very well before SBO. This is what one would call "SBO Syndrome", in which one player does very well one year and everyone thinks their character is stronger than they actually are (KA2 killing everyone at SBO in Slash one year is a very good example).

Chou's list was obviously very biased when he ranked Tao at SS tier (who didn't even end up as S tier in later JBBS tier lists) and ranked characters all the way to F tier, even though a majority of lists prior and after that have only gone as far as D tier. This is what one would consider "biased". Just because a top player is a top player does not mean they are free from bias. Look at Ogawa, one of the best GG players in the world. He made a tier list in which everyone, even the worst characters in the game, didn't fall below B+ rank. He also ranked a lot of previously discussed mid-tier characters in A or S rank. Later on, an Arcadia list pretty much put a majority of the cast in C tier, with only four characters in B tier, one in A tier, and two in S.

Point being: Tsujikawa doing well in SBO does not mean Tao is SS tier. It just meant Tsujikawa played well.

[Nini Heart]

Why is Tao not S tier BTW, SBO aside?

Only thing wrong with her as far as I can see is that she doesn't handle pressure well when she has no meter. Or is there something else I don't know about? That seemed to be her only flaw when I played XDest. That and she gets no damage from jabs.

Meh I don't really care about anyone's position except Makoto and Noel TBH, just wondering about why Tao's not S tier.

[ATG Warlord]

looks fine except Tao not being S tier

[A.X.I.S.]

Why would Tao be S tier?

Explain that.

[Kyosuke Kagami]

You guys... -_-

I don't remember that, back in 2005 (or 2006?), people were all bitching about "zomg Faust SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS Tier coz RF won #R tourney at EVO asdsafasfs"

[zeth07]

I already said it earlier: winning SBO doesn't make your character go S tier, or even go up in ranks in tier lists. A lot of people (read: most of Dustloop) see Tsujikawa perform well at SBO and are wow and amazed at Taokaka... even though Taokaka has pretty much been doing very well before SBO. This is what one would call "SBO Syndrome", in which one player does very well one year and everyone thinks their character is stronger than they actually are (KA2 killing everyone at SBO in Slash one year is a very good example).

Chou's list was obviously very biased when he ranked Tao at SS tier (who didn't even end up as S tier in later JBBS tier lists) and ranked characters all the way to F tier, even though a majority of lists prior and after that have only gone as far as D tier. This is what one would consider "biased". Just because a top player is a top player does not mean they are free from bias. Look at Ogawa, one of the best GG players in the world. He made a tier list in which everyone, even the worst characters in the game, didn't fall below B+ rank. He also ranked a lot of previously discussed mid-tier characters in A or S rank. Later on, an Arcadia list pretty much put a majority of the cast in C tier, with only four characters in B tier, one in A tier, and two in S.

Point being: Tsujikawa doing well in SBO does not mean Tao is SS tier. It just meant Tsujikawa played well.

Doesn't that point kinda go against your "SBO Syndrome" theory? If Tao was doing good before SBO, wouldn't Tsujikawa doing good at SBO just solidify Tao being good? Which isn't the same as someone not doing good prior to SBO and then suddenly doing good, which is what you're implying with your "SBO Syndrome".

I think it would make sense if it was like Tager in CT or Rachel in CS winning and then people doing that, but not Tao.

[AdamNW]

@Zeth:

He's saying that no one recognized it until Tao won SBO, but then started to hype the fuck out of her. She basically went from underrated to overrated.

[Spirit Juice]

Doesn't that point kinda go against your "SBO Syndrome" theory? If Tao was doing good before SBO, wouldn't Tsujikawa doing good at SBO just solidify Tao being good? Which isn't the same as someone not doing good prior to SBO and then suddenly doing good, which is what you're implying with your "SBO Syndrome".

I think it would make sense if it was like Tager in CT or Rachel in CS winning and then people doing that, but not Tao.

No, it's because most of Dustloop seemed to jump on the bandwagon that Tao was S tier after the fact that Tsujikawa won SBO. It's happened before, like with KA2, but on a much smaller level because GG isn't as popular as BB. There was similar reaction that year, but KA2 didn't do anything crazy or new with Jam that no one hadn't seen before; he just outplayed everyone that year.

As for Tao not being S tier, I'd imagine it just has to do with her poor defensive options without CA and low amount of HP/primers. She doesn't really have any major flaws otherwise. Or she has bad matchups with Bang and Litchi, and her good match ups aren't high enough to push her into S tier.

[SolheartStud]

List looks fine to me. Poor Tager being at the bottom again.

[Zidane]

Oh, another one of THESE threads?

It's been a while.

I think it's time to assemble the team... for one more job...

[Nakkiel]

You didn't really answer my question, at least directly to my post. I mean if your biggest reason that Taokaka is not S tier is that it's just a bandwagon thing...It's not a detailed answer and it doesn't really have any weight. As far as SBO goes, Tsujikawa playing well does indeed just mean Tsujikawa played well but for a lot of people it was the first time they saw a good Tao. Watching a good player let's you see the character's strengths and weaknesses and really she doesn't have any glaring ones. I would acknowledge her lack of strong defensive options without meter as a bigger problem, except her capabilities to play keep away and not even have to get put in that situation are great. Her movement is strong, her risk/reward is amazing to the point it can be scary.

Why does a top player tiering characters their own way mean they're "extremely biased"? Of course they have bias, however, having bias because other tier lists look different or the arcadia tier lists are for some reason far more valid (why is this, to you?) doesn't mean he's extremely biased and wrong. Yeah, he's a top player. That doesn't free him from bias. But he's still a top player, that requires knowledge, so even if he thinks differently, it's not like he's just spouting out his ass. I also don't think she does poorly against Bang or Litchi at all, if anything Litchi vs Tao is very, very close to even. Not too familiar with Tao vs Bang but it doesn't seem bad.

tl;dr i so mad

Edited January 23, 2011 by sG

[Nobus3r1]

Oh, another one of THESE threads?

It's been a while.

I think it's time to assemble the team... for one more job...

A little something like this?

In 1972, a crack commando unit was sent to prison by a military court for a crime they didn't commit. These men promptly escaped from a maximum security stockade to the Los Angeles underground. Today, still wanted by the government they survive as soldiers of fortune. If you have a problem, if no one else can help, and if you can find them....maybe you can hire The A-Team.

Video Version FTW!!!

[Spirit Juice]

I'm not really sure what you're looking for. An entire character breakdown in great detail? Unfortunately I don't understand Tao enough to break it down like that and can only make general statements like what I said earlier. I always try to look at things objectively rather than subjectively. Japan doesn't view Taokaka being as good as Litchi and Bang. Why would that be? It's more than just "Tao isn't S tier because America suddenly thinks so".

The thing is with "personal" tier lists is that there usually is bias. There will always be bias, so you have to take them with a grain of salt. Community based lists are generally better, as they incorperate various opinions and thoughts as to where a character should be ranked. Even with that said, you still have to take them with a grain of salt, but they are generally better than personal lists. JBBS is generally a good, reliable source of information and has been for a very long time, which is why Arcadia lists and JBBS lists are generally accepted as accurate.

[Nakkiel]

I was just asking why you disagreed, mainly, regarding the character's capabilities, not the bandwagoning. I personally think she's very strong and I'd lump her up at the top. But like you said, tier lists are biased and should be taken as a grain of salt. As far as Tao goes as far as people agreeing on her placement, the line seems blurry from "A" to "S" tier.

For the tier lists, I just wanted to know why you think Chou's should be basically disregarded (I may be wrong about your feelings over it, reading your reply), you've given me good enough reasons. Personally I don't think any of them are really more right than another, but as most people should know the tier lists should be taken with a grain of salt anyways.

[Spirit Juice]

Generally, a good way of thinking about a line between S tier and A tier is "does this character have any weaknesses, and, if they do, do they have anything powerful enough to negate that weakness". Tao's poor defense is definietly a weakness everyone probably agrees on, and it seems like her other qualities just don't shine enough to make her in S tier. If you look at Bang and Litchi, they don't have any real weaknesses in their game. Another good example would be Eddie from GGAC. Without his Shadow out, his defensive options are very poor. Sure he can turtle a bit by flying and zoning with drills, but he does have very poor ways of getting out of trouble once someone is in his face. However, his offense is literally SO good that it just makes up for his poor defensive options.

In regards to Chou's list... When it's generally accepted that the tiers go from S rank to C/D rank and then post a tier list that ranks Tao by herself at SS rank and goes all the way down to F rank is pretty extreme. Hence the bias.

[Nini Heart]

What did Chou's list actually look like?

[Nakkiel]

Generally, a good way of thinking about a line between S tier and A tier is "does this character have any weaknesses, and, if they do, do they have anything powerful enough to negate that weakness". Tao's poor defense is definietly a weakness everyone probably agrees on, and it seems like her other qualities just don't shine enough to make her in S tier. If you look at Bang and Litchi, they don't have any real weaknesses in their game. Another good example would be Eddie from GGAC. Without his Shadow out, his defensive options are very poor. Sure he can turtle a bit by flying and zoning with drills, but he does have very poor ways of getting out of trouble once someone is in his face. However, his offense is literally SO good that it just makes up for his poor defensive options.

In regards to Chou's list... When it's generally accepted that the tiers go from S rank to C/D rank and then post a tier list that ranks Tao by herself at SS rank and goes all the way down to F rank is pretty extreme. Hence the bias.

I already touched on my personal opinions about weakness/strengths and I do agree with you on the method of thinking. I don't have a problem with anything else written here. While Chou's list is extreme, I won't deny that, like most others that get posted I think it can be taken with a grain of salt, no more, of course.

What did Chou's list actually look like?

While I don't remember exactly, the first part was

SS: Taokaka

S: Litchi

Bang was either with Litchi or in like S- or something.

[ATG Warlord]

Why would Tao be S tier?

Explain that.

ahh too lazy to type but here ya go.

she has so so so many options and her pressure-mixup are really hard to yomi plus she's very very mobile which makes chasing her pointless even for mobile characters like Bang. I like to think that she's on a "mini FuuRinKaazan" state due to her mobility; and her dmg output is ridiculous even off 2A or even gold burst.

Also never forget her broken CA, it's 100% safe even if baited and puts her airborne which is where Tao is strongest.

Her health is 95k I know but she's a character with insane potential and has all the tools that make up for the low health and more.

[huey253]

chou's list had

SS Tao and Litchi

S Bang

....

btw Bang has a slight disadvantage againist taokaka.

He also doesn't have any real reversal options other than daifunka or steel rain (lol) or frkz if you have 4 seals (which makes certain matches harder)

[PSOInvictus]

95000 health? Holy shit