[CS2] Iron Tager General Discussion

[FlyingVe]

I do agree with that statement, but the throw nerf/buffs were meant to be taken in whole (which you already addressed). To be honest, I don't even think Tager's throw game is even the real reason he doesn't have alot of that grappler presence. It's his neutral and his non-throw close range normals. There are other issues of course.

[Osuna]

You're talking about the 720 as a reversal. While that's certainly good, I still feel (my opinion on this one), that Tager's ability to convert a 1 frame gap into 5.6k unburstable damage is one of the key reasons he doesn't get real buffs. It would be frustrating and potentially unbalanced if he was both a good character (for whatever reasons) and had a reversal that lopped off half your health.

I also think there are lots of other ways to fix Tager's defensive issues.

Edit: To answer your edit (lol) the speed on the 360A is a liability when ever it has to use it magnetic pull to get the grab. It is unreactionable at point blank, but just barely.

The magnet pulls before the active frame, meaning the reason it catches them from super far right now, which it does, is Because it is slower. Also if you're going for it outside of it's range and have to hold it you're being kinda silly. On top of that, it Can do that, 360B can't, the ranges simply can't be compared.

And now I'm going to wait for a response to this too so we aren't having two conversations anymore.

[FlyingVe]

First, I wanted to say that you've made all good points and I have had to rethink a few things, and that at this point I feel we are arguing over how best to use Tager's different grabs.

As for the 360A, there's a reason you don't see it used alot, and that's because the risk/reward on it isn't very good. This is mostly because it's slow and doesn't do alot of damage (relatively). If your at a range where you have to use the pull on 360A, it sucks, and as you put it, you'd be 'silly' to do so. So what your left with is a short range counter-poke, which is why I hold it's used primarily as a footsies tool/threat. When used as a quasi-reversal (as in the +1 situation I described), it just isn't worth using. So you are correct in stating that the 360B buff is mostly a damage buff but there's a reason you don't disrespect Ragna's 2A>2C but you might his 2C>stuff, it's because one is a hell of alot scarier than the other.

I may have missed what your second point was getting at, if so, I apologize. But I believe that Tager's only punishment/tic/escape grab is his 360B/720C as 360A either doesn't work well or is too risky for it's tiny reward.

Edit: Sorry for the delay, making sloppy joes.

Edit2: I just remembered that landing recovery is 4 frames. Which would make the faster 360B (very situationally) better.

[Osuna]

I'm a little confused why you're bothered by its range. I'm going to tell you what it sounds like in overly simple terms just to explain myself, so please don't feel like I'm mocking you.

"360A's range is vastly superior but sucks because it's only unreactionably fast, which is why 360B is better, heck we should make it faster so that it pulls even less." so I think I'm not getting that idea.

I personally use 360A a lot, and really wish it had a damage buff so I get what you mean by it not really worth it, but I do still think that buffing 360B that way is Hyper situational, whereas buffing 360A would just be generally more useful. Less than 4K and some meter gain would be plenty worthwhile to me.

Again, I want to emphasize that the speed on 360A isn't a problem, and it adds a lot of use to the move without taking much away. I can't think of a time where I wishes it were 4 or 5 frames faster. Occasionally I've wished it was a frame or two slower.

I agree with then notion that he needs better normals, but I feel like his throws receive a nerf with the changes they get. Grappling would become more difficult, and without 720 and with 360B's situational buff, Tagers threat up close isn't very significant, the main thing making him scarier up close is the general damage boost and the speed boost to some of his normals (referring to your wish list) The threat of his throws aren't buffed that much except for the 22D buff. Heck the 22D buff alone would improve the risk reward on 360A. But that kind of stuff needs specific frame data to be assessed.

People had 6A super armor, and VC xx 720 on their list too, the value is in the details.

(Were the sloppy joes good?)

[FlyingVe]

Sloppy Joes are always good.

When people suggested VCxx720 and 6A armor I pretty sure they were hoping for a different implementation than what we got. The details as you said.

I agree that having a better invulnerable command grab would be great, but as I've said before I'm just really against the idea of having a good invulnerable grab that doesn't cost meter.

It's not 360A's range that is the problem so much, it's just that at that range I don't find it a particularly good option. It's very easy to beat/bait/avoid, so I find it much more consistent to play footsies and jockey for position, using moves that won't cause me to explode if it doesn't work out. Obviously you can avoid 360B in all the same ways but landing a 360B dramatically changes the match, whereas a 360A not so much. In addition, in most situations where you can condition my opponent enough to try a throw, they're gonna be in 360B range anyways, and the speed makes it a better tic. People are just much more afraid of 360B than A.

Agreed there would need to be lots of frame data changes but I wasn't going to dig through that for the purposes of a wishlist.

Also, what do you mean by you wish 360A was slower? Do you mean that you could hold it longer?

On another note, not being in CH state during throw recovery would be nice. Especially with the FC mechanic.

[Manta]

It's an odd one really. 360A compared to 360B does less damage, has way more recovery, starts up slower and doesn't auto grab and you seldom use the suck in effect. You're trading in all of that for a 3~11 invulnerability. Is that ultimately worth it? I can't honestly say, because I think I use 360A way more than B, but not sure if I should.

Incidentally, I DO use the magnetism on 720C to great effect at some outrageous ranges, Few people expect a throw at half a screen's width and can throw out some very unsafe moves. (E.g. Makoto trying to use breakshot)

EDIT: 360A apparently has better reach than, 360B. That explains a lot. Thanks arcsys for clear animations on that matter.

[FlyingVe]

360A's range is almost double that of 360B. But conditioning at that range is very spotty as 5C isn't fast enough to be a great anti-jump and we don't get shit for 3C.

5B can work though, but you have no good way of reseting the situation if they don't jump.

[Manta]

360A's range is almost double that of 360B. But conditioning at that range is very spotty as 5C isn't fast enough to be a great anti-jump and we don't get shit for 3C.

5B can work though, but you have no good way of reseting the situation if they don't jump.

It's not double (210 against 275), but it still makes a difference.

[FlyingVe]

hmm... only 65 greater, i thought it was more than that. *shrug*

[Osuna]

If it was a little slower (a few more frames of invulnerable start up) it would ghetto anti air more things and have more magnetized pull.

It's magnetized pull because of its greater start up makes its range Much better than 360B. It's one of the only 2 supposed buffs that I've actually found a lot of use for. The invulnerability also just generaly allows it to be used in many more situations than 360B, which is essentially his normal throw in speed and range on someone who can't even hop forward.

Most people I think should end up using 360A more often than B because if you're using B a lot your opponent is fucking up a lot. I personally found that when I was transitioning to CS2 that I was losing a lot to people who obviously played it more (Nineballinfinite and some litchis especially), and was just terrible on defense, could never get them off me. I started using 360A more and I started winning. That's not to say I could spam it, but they couldn't stagger blockstrings every time anymore, and if they didn't back off while magnetized, I was able to make rushing in a little dangerous.

I wonder why people keep bringing up, "Yeah but if you use it from far enough away to have to hold it down..." Why would you do anything from that range? You literally can't do anything remotely safe or effective from that range even if they are magnetized. Your only option is to try to get closer.

That's part of why I came up with that tier list a while ago:

People who can't fight outside magnetized 360A range, Bad

People who can fight outside magnetized 360A range, Worse

People who fight very well from outside magnetized 360A range, Worst

[FlyingVe]

I agree with that assessment entirely. More invul is really the buff you're asking for though. I don't really have a particular response to that as I do agree with it, but 360B is the throw I use almost 100% of the time in mixup because it usually just the better option.

I will restate your point for emphasis, if you doing things where you need to use the pull 360A is ballz.

[Osuna]

I agree with that assessment entirely. More invul is really the buff you're asking for though. I don't really have a particular response to that as I do agree with it, but 360B is the throw I use almost 100% of the time in mixup because it usually just the better option.

I will restate your point for emphasis, if you doing things where you need to use the pull 360A is ballz.

Not exactly, what I mean is Everything we do at that range sucks, if you have to hold down 360A to get them in rang unless it's a weird punish, in which case the long start up of 360A is what makes that punish Possible, then it's not a very good idea.

I'm objecting to you even mentioning that as a con, because there is no counter example of something that Is good at that range for 1. If you want to count it as a weakness, every move tager has has that weakness.

And 2, the delay has other uses and even if it got a frame or two of additional vulnerable start up, those uses would still be buffed even if the traditional ones were certainly nerfed. The thing that buffs them is the increased start up time.

So it's like you're coming up with a situation in which no one does, or a least should use the move and claiming it is a weakness for no reason. It's like saying 6B is a bad move because it's hard to anti air with.

[HolyOrderChipp]

So why not just make it automatically grab when they get in range, like Genesic Emerald &co. do? That'd surely be better than just making it slower. You could have your slow and eat it too! Er, have your fast and slow it too? Have your cake and fast it slow? Anyway! You get the idea.

[CrazyI-nomitsu]

What are you guys talking about? I have been through a lot of shit lately. My PS3 is broken....I played too much MK9( on it. Sigh...I was this close from getting out of the range of scrub with Plat and Tager.

[Osuna]

What are you guys talking about? I have been through a lot of shit lately. My PS3 is broken....I played too much MK9( on it. Sigh...I was this close from getting out of the range of scrub with Plat and Tager.

Someone said 360B should be 2 frames faster, and I asked why since it is fine on offense and 360A would be better on defense.

[CrazyI-nomitsu]

Someone said 360B should be 2 frames faster, and I asked why since it is fine on offense and 360A would be better on defense.

I actually agree with that. but in the heat of the moment, I find myself 360 B out of pressure instead of doing 360 A. I gotta get into that habit.

[FlyingVe]

Osuna pointed out that in defensive terms the 360A is better, however, I believe that 360A's threat level is really low.

[Osuna]

I think the solution is to buff 360A, since buffing 360B to the point where it is good on defense would take a lot of work and risk making 360A obsolete.

[Manta]

Here's some crazy ass idea that I thought up:

Make 360B unable to catch crouching people, but able to hit airborne people right in front of Tager. Give his normal B+C throws decent damage so they can be used as ground punishes as need be. Nothing is safe now after GF.

Also, Chargeable 6B that becomes unblockable anyone?

[FlyingVe]

I think the solution is to buff 360A, since buffing 360B to the point where it is good on defense would take a lot of work and risk making 360A obsolete.

I've re-read our discussion, and I think I may agree, however, that would have to include a damage buff of some kind I think.

Edit: and by some kind, I don't necessarily mean a direct damage increase. Maybe 360A is the one that should be allowed to be RC'd.

[Manta]

I've re-read our discussion, and I think I may agree, however, that would have to include a damage buff of some kind I think.

Edit: and by some kind, I don't necessarily mean a direct damage increase. Maybe 360A is the one that should be allowed to be RC'd.

Personally, I don't see why we need five different ground to ground throws. Seems redundant.

[FlyingVe]

Personally, I don't see why we need five different ground to ground throws. Seems redundant.

Right, the regular throws, they are pretty worthless, though I guess you can do some TRM stuff with them but if they let us cancel into 360s again that wouldn't even matter.

[Manta]

Actually, I think it should be the other way. B+C Throws are a core move that everyone has. So Tager must have them, so if he has to have them, make them a source of big damage and give different purposes to the 360 moves.

[FlyingVe]

If they did big damage it might be worth it to try the TRM stuff, but still, that's a very specific purpose.

[Manta]

I mean to say, make the 360s do something radically different. Make them air to air throws, Throws with massive reach but a minumum range. Command dash throws. Something other than a normal ground throw with a special input.