Domethieus Report post Posted August 7, 2011 What? Patch next week when first loke test in Aug 11th? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
haketh Report post Posted August 7, 2011 this all I want.....bring back CT Tager's damage and we're fine. Yeah, this is pretty much the thing that me and Osuna have always wanted back. Well that and better pull on J. D and 5D back to CSI status. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TagerTime Report post Posted August 7, 2011 What? Patch next week when first loke test in Aug 11th? that's what i meant the location test coming out next week, and ofcourse i agree Tager should have the highest damage combos in the game. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CrazyI-nomitsu Report post Posted August 7, 2011 Good TT. So, let's hope we get it instead of more gimmicks. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Edalborez Report post Posted August 7, 2011 Better horizontal range. Anti-airs that aren't completely terrible. A wider hitbox on 5C. Pray. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BeaverDeity Report post Posted August 8, 2011 every other char in BB craps all over that list and many grapplers are top tier in ther games T_T He should be at least B or A tier like just about every other grappler. it would have to be that tager who is my favorite and the coolest grappler from any fighting game happens to be the worst of them all:vbang: Tager's the best what chu talkin bout it's not like he can't dash or can't catch a good Hazama player or anything Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bblader1 Report post Posted August 8, 2011 What I'd like to see more than any of that is a reduced hurtbox on Collider. Shit like this shouldn't happen Seriously, they need to fix that move already. It's like it can't do what it's designed to do. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
OrionXElite Report post Posted August 8, 2011 Not trying to be mean but there are a lot of things wrong with that list TagerTime posted. When I get home tonight I'll elaborate on the problems I see. Get ready for a wall of text folks :3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bblader1 Report post Posted August 8, 2011 Orion's Tager is a lot more GIGANTIC than mine and by absolutely no means am I trying to one-up him, but can I have just this one thing before he does? voltec charge and 6A not vulnerable to lows, (that's what that giant freaking leg armor he wears is for) ...Okay, and what is the opposition going to do to deal with 6A, then? If this happens then Tager can pretty much just magnetize and spam the shit out of 6A. Voltec doesn't bother me that much since I always wind up getting thrown out of it rather than low'd out of it but we'll see what the local Tager heroes have to say about it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Osuna Report post Posted August 8, 2011 I admire Orion taking on the task of explaining the many many things wrong with that list. I wouldn't know where to begin. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
A.X.I.S. Report post Posted August 8, 2011 I should eat Nacho's when I read Orion's post. I do welcome this type of stuff though. It makes the sun shine even when its pitch black dark for me. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
C0R Report post Posted August 8, 2011 I should eat Nacho's when I read Orion's post. I do welcome this type of stuff though. It makes the sun shine even when its pitch black dark for me. Don't you mean. NAH-cho's. It's a pun, see? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
A.X.I.S. Report post Posted August 8, 2011 I...I...I...hate you so much right now. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zeron_X25 Report post Posted August 8, 2011 I don't get it... Anyways, the only thing I think should be changed about Tager right now is a slight damage increase and also, 6A's super armor needs to kick in at the very first frames. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Yggjrasil Report post Posted August 8, 2011 Tagers be dodgin' my Plat on ranked. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
A.X.I.S. Report post Posted August 8, 2011 It's PSN in ranked. On xbl the only people who dodge are the cue dodgers. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
OrionXElite Report post Posted August 8, 2011 All of my responses are in Bold, not all of them are negative, they are all my personal opinions based on the point at hand. Wall of text alert :3 all normals faster like unlimited tager (enough with this super slow bs) I'd only make 4D, 2D and 2C faster. Everything else is fine. higher overall damage (i think all combos should get at least 1k-1.5k damage across the board increase) I'm kinda 50/50 on this. Yes he should do more damage, but giving him too much more given the amount of heat he can generate on a good hit can actually make him too strong. Tager getting 5-5.5k per combo AND 50 heat in the process would mean that nearly everyone is within the "1 Hit, 1 Reset" spectrum of losing and that is too strong. I'd say make his combo rating about 50 and tweak some of his moves and he'll be fine. 6B breaks primers again Agreed more usefull gatlings (ex. 2C>4D back) This is kind of eh for me. Its not that we need more gatlings, its just that our gatlings need to be safer overall. make 2D good Its actually good as it stands, its only -1 at point blank range. With 10 active frames, you can create a big Frame Advantage if you set it up right. It should be faster though. Double jump 1000000% YES 6A 6A super armor starts much earlier Yes assuming its not Frame one, I think frame 5 would be fine. It would make it more useful in footsie situations. 6A regains projectile invincibility separate of super armor Yes this a frustrating loss for Tager as now we have to risk being even more unsafe against characters like Bang who have TK D Nails as an option against GF oki. 6A covered Backdash, D Nails and them just blocking which made it really good, now its just good for Backdashes. 6A super armor stronger (3k base dmg) NOOOOOOOOOOOOO This would be awful. This would mean it could eat ANY Super completely and go right through it. 6A charge cancelable I dunno if you mean like Special cancel to XYH normally cause you can already do that. If you mean cancel the hold into XYH, then yeah maybe that could be a good change. Make people respect it if they try and hit you low by going VTC>720 out of the hold. But even then, that could be too strong. As a side note to this, 6A in general needs to be overhauled. Its fucking useless now. The fact that all anyone has to do while they're magnetized is just Super Jump and they get out of it for free. Not to mention that with the loss of the Jump Cancel, pressure with it is god awful. Your only truly safe option after 6A is 4D which leaves you at even on normal block so you're gonna be screwed anyway if you aren't careful. Command Grabs more untech time to be able to easily otg collider ALL chars after 360A/B This is fair, the micro walk bullshit is tedious to learn but sadly necessary to make his Buster's REALLY hurt. 360/720 in block-stun/hit-stun are always green instead of purple NONONONONONONONONO Thats a terrible idea. With 50 meter, you could add 3700 damage onto ANY combo that ends in GF cause all you'd have to do is GF>RC>360B. If you have 100 Meter, they're fucked cause on top of that combo, they're adding 7400 to it. Only Tager could live through that. Add an air buster This is TECHNICALLY what Collider is for but they need to fix Collider in order to do this. Collider needs to have a smaller hurtbox and it needs to have better head invul. Special moves Bsledge has same startup as A sledge Not necessary really, what trade in startup you get back in the fact that BSledge is +3. It would also make some of his combos harder. return Hammer hyper armor from the CS2 location test Ehhhh...Maybe, If you could do Hammer on its own and it had hyper armor a la Potemkin's HammerFall then yeah, maybe. But as it is now, It would just be this silly mixup bewteen mash or don't mash. sledgehammer has magnetic pull (but only if the above hammer changes included. Hammer is the only green energy attack without mag pull) Unnecessary change really. Its never the Magnetism it needs, its the reach and lack of disadvantage on block. invincibility on spark start up (usable as a reversal) MAYBE, this is a concept I've thought a lot about, I think it COULD be a good change, it would make people respect Tager a lot more on his wakeup and not be so willing to lame it out and let him get Spark Bolt. The problem is giving both a meterless reversal and a 5.6k Metered reversal, it would make him un touchable on wakeup 90% of the time. voltec charge and 6A not vulnerable to lows, (that's what that giant freaking leg armor he wears is for) I think its a fair mechanic to make those lose to lows. What they need to do is fix the Magnetic pull on 6A to make it MUCH stronger while holding it to keep them from jumping out. This way, you either block it normally or you reaction Low with it. XYH doesn't need full body guardpoint as you shouldn't be using it in a way to block moves and punish. voltec charge fully cancelable for real into all command grabs (not this near impossible 11f startup bullcrap) NO this cannot be implemented into the game as it will make Tager very stupid. It will create this obnoxious mixup EVERYTIME he decides to Charge. It'll be "Charge>Hold while churning butter, do you think they hit a button?? CCCCCCCC!!!" Can't have that. The VTC>720 Cancel was integrated into the game for the sake of giving Tager stronger 720 mixup mainly off of his 5A and 2A cause in CS1, it was really hard to do anything with those. In CS2, Tager's 5A is EXTREMELY scary now with it being +2 and possibly ticked into 720. Magnetism alter magnetism system so its not crap This is fair, Magnetism tends to fuck Tager over more than help him *COUGH*Hazama*COUGH* magnetism affects all chars special attacks (especially in the air) Not really sure how that could be applied to the game without it being too strong except for maybe a slight increase of Gravity so they can't jump away as easily?? I dunno. magnetism timer YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEES Spark meter fills completely on one full voltec charge Ehhh...I'd be more happy with Tager just starting with a Spark Bolt and then having to get it back. Assuming it doesn't become a reversal as stated earlier, I think Tager would benefit more from being able to stock 2 of them and use them as desired, for dealing with Zoning, getting Magnetism or for combos as I'm sure 2 Spark combos would be hype :3 Supers higher minimum damage on terra break (50% heat for only 700 damage is pathetic) Yes, needs to be MUCH higher honestly, for what you spend to use it, it should be giving you at least 1500 minimum. MTW ->Terra Break needs to be stronger than 720 for the 100% heat (or make it only 50% heat combined like unlimited cs tager) Also yes, the cost of 100 meter and it only does 1400 minimum damage total. Thats awful. The fact that we benefit more from just going 2C Fatal>AC>ACWhiff>MTW>Terra Break than a full combo into it is ridiculous. New possible supers super magnetism 720 for 100% heat same as CT unlimited tager The Magnetic Pull on 720 is already really good. Making CT unlimited Tager status would be too strong at a footsies level. VTC>720 would be really difficult to deal with in a lot of cases unless you're full screen. spark beam A Ranged Super that can deal with bullshit zoning, yes I think he needs it. Doesn't matter what it is so long as its full screen within 2 Frames after the flash. super Air buster Air-to-Air Supers are really difficult to work with. I think something along the lines of a Super Collider could be plausible, but would need to balanced very well. Moderate damage, good startup, good for reads not guesses. I dunno, thats a very hard concept to work with. improved standalone Terra Break (usable as a reversal) COULD be useful but we already have 720 so kinda not necessary. Yeah so those are my thoughts. Overall, Tager just needs to have his old 6A back, make Collider better as an AA, give better oki off of GF and fix his damage a bit. Also, wall of text, apologies if this offends anyone :3 Enjoy you NAHchos AXIS :3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TagerTime Report post Posted August 8, 2011 I admire Orion taking on the task of explaining the many many things wrong with that list. I wouldn't know where to begin. LOL like i care. And orion agreed with almost everything on my list ROFLMAO Tager should get a major overhaul but thats not gona happen before bb3 if ever. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FlyingVe Report post Posted August 8, 2011 Given that the changes, if any, will be known in two weeks, I wouldn't waste my breath on a list. Save your ire untill we here the results, and we inevitably get fucked over again. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CrazyI-nomitsu Report post Posted August 8, 2011 Hey Orion.....how about this? GIVE US OUR FUCKING CT DAMAGE BACK YOU ASSSHOLES!!!!! FUCK ALL THIS OTHER BULLSHIT. I WANT MY INSANE DAMAGE OUTPUT BACK. That's all I want to be honest. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
OrionXElite Report post Posted August 8, 2011 Ironically, grapplers typically dont dish out HUGE damage outside of their grabs. Look at Zangief, he's a fantastic character, amazing normals and good fast throws. But he spends half the match just poking you till he can get that one knockdown and then he goes for the big shit with his grabs. So in all honesty, Tagers damage isn't bad unless you're hitting that 5A :3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CrazyI-nomitsu Report post Posted August 8, 2011 Ironically, grapplers typically dont dish out HUGE damage outside of their grabs. Look at Zangief, he's a fantastic character, amazing normals and good fast throws. But he spends half the match just poking you till he can get that one knockdown and then he goes for the big shit with his grabs. So in all honesty, Tagers damage isn't bad unless you're hitting that 5A :3 You got a point. The CT damage...it's like your first girlfriend. You want her back even though she's with another guy. But hey, I got this to make me happy. http://my.deviantart.com/messages/#/d45tijs Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Osuna Report post Posted August 8, 2011 LOL like i care. And orion agreed with almost everything on my list ROFLMAO Tager should get a major overhaul but thats not gona happen before bb3 if ever.I read this first and was like "Really? When I scanned orion's reply I only saw about 7 or 8 worth agreeing with at a glance." And I stand corrected. He agreed with 9. on a list of would looks to be about 30 suggestions (So almost all is about 1 in 3?). I didn't think the beam super would fly. I apologize Tagertime. A beam super appeals to people. I didn't give you enough credit. That said, most of your suggestions were goofy, unnecessary or broken and just explaining those would have taken me a long time, since I'm so long winded. I'm glad to have left it to orion. On a much more productive note I've found Orion's notes very enlightening to our philosophical differences. I don't really need tager to be any stronger on wake up, and I don't want him to have a tool that is extremely strong against zoning. I would be quite satisfied with tager if they would stop taking away his modest utilities everytime they give him something new. There are just a few minor roll backs, and frame data adjustments, I'm talking things like changes to a single frame, that would improve Tager's match ups in a modest way. Now this is where I explain why I never considered myself a pessimist about Tager. I Like tager. If you completely redid Tager I don't know if I'd like him, if you gave him some sort of broken tool, I'd be kinda pissed off. If you gave him something completely out of character, like a dash, It better be a really shitty hop otherwise it really doesn't belong. I wasn't going to get CT. I got it because Tager looked fun and different and he is. I'm pissed and bitch and moan when they nerf him because what little he had was a lot of fun to me. I Love J.D whiff, 6A jc, IB 360B and in kinda the same vain I loved whiffing bursts through moves. I even liked playing against all of the broken CT characters. I hate when they give him Stupid buffs, because I had to trade in the stuff I liked for it. EDIT: Damage is relative, I played CT not that long ago, compared to the rest of the cast our damage wasn't That amazing. The real buff was that if we baited a burst or got a successful mix up after a combo we straight up killed them, but we weren't the only ones who could do that, and several characters did it much better than Tager. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TagerTime Report post Posted August 8, 2011 All of my responses are in Bold, not all of them are negative, they are all my personal opinions based on the point at hand. Wall of text alert :3 higher overall damage (i think all combos should get at least 1k-1.5k damage across the board increase) I'm kinda 50/50 on this. Yes he should do more damage, but giving him too much more given the amount of heat he can generate on a good hit can actually make him too strong. Tager getting 5-5.5k per combo AND 50 heat in the process would mean that nearly everyone is within the "1 Hit, 1 Reset" spectrum of losing and that is too strong. I'd say make his combo rating about 50 and tweak some of his moves and he'll be fine. lol everybody else says he should have CT damage back. more usefull gatlings (ex. 2C>4D back) This is kind of eh for me. Its not that we need more gatlings, its just that our gatlings need to be safer overall. Alot of people say they wish he had 2c>4d back. i miss 2c>5d also make 2D good Its actually good as it stands, its only -1 at point blank range. With 10 active frames, you can create a big Frame Advantage if you set it up right. It should be faster though. well yes definitely faster too just overall better and more useful. 6A super armor stronger (3k base dmg) NOOOOOOOOOOOOO This would be awful. This would mean it could eat ANY Super completely and go right through it. Then 2k-2.5k it should just be strong enough so no single special move can break it in one hit. 6A charge cancelable I dunno if you mean like Special cancel to XYH normally cause you can already do that. If you mean cancel the hold into XYH, then yeah maybe that could be a good change. Make people respect it if they try and hit you low by going VTC>720 out of the hold. But even then, that could be too strong. I mean like being able to stop mid charge and return to neutral state so you dont have to commit to the swing. 360/720 in block-stun/hit-stun are always green instead of purple NONONONONONONONONO Thats a terrible idea. With 50 meter, you could add 3700 damage onto ANY combo that ends in GF cause all you'd have to do is GF>RC>360B. If you have 100 Meter, they're fucked cause on top of that combo, they're adding 7400 to it. Only Tager could live through that. No you don't understand what i mean. I mean it should be green exclamation mark instead of purple exclamation mark. So they can still tech out like a normal green exclamation mark throw but not have 10 years to tech out like a purple exclamation mark throw. Special moves Bsledge has same startup as A sledge Not necessary really, what trade in startup you get back in the fact that BSledge is +3. It would also make some of his combos harder. 10 years of startup to always get counter hit To me Bsledge sucks. anyway to make it much better is fine with me invincibility on spark start up (usable as a reversal) MAYBE, this is a concept I've thought a lot about, I think it COULD be a good change, it would make people respect Tager a lot more on his wakeup and not be so willing to lame it out and let him get Spark Bolt. The problem is giving both a meterless reversal and a 5.6k Metered reversal, it would make him un touchable on wakeup 90% of the time. Sparkbolt is not meterless, He would have two metered reversals. you need full spark meter to use sparkbolt. voltec charge and 6A not vulnerable to lows, (that's what that giant freaking leg armor he wears is for) I think its a fair mechanic to make those lose to lows. What they need to do is fix the Magnetic pull on 6A to make it MUCH stronger while holding it to keep them from jumping out. This way, you either block it normally or you reaction Low with it. XYH doesn't need full body guardpoint as you shouldn't be using it in a way to block moves and punish. Then take off that dam giant metal leg armor to give tager freaking mobility, if its not gona protect his legs from low attacks voltec charge fully cancelable for real into all command grabs (not this near impossible 11f startup bullcrap) NO this cannot be implemented into the game as it will make Tager very stupid. It will create this obnoxious mixup EVERYTIME he decides to Charge. It'll be "Charge>Hold while churning butter, do you think they hit a button?? CCCCCCCC!!!" Can't have that. The VTC>720 Cancel was integrated into the game for the sake of giving Tager stronger 720 mixup mainly off of his 5A and 2A cause in CS1, it was really hard to do anything with those. In CS2, Tager's 5A is EXTREMELY scary now with it being +2 and possibly ticked into 720. Its not extremely scary cus its dam near impossible to do for everyone else. im fine with only cancellable into 720 but should be able to be done easily not rediculously hard. Magnetism magnetism affects all chars special attacks (especially in the air) Not really sure how that could be applied to the game without it being too strong except for maybe a slight increase of Gravity so they can't jump away as easily?? I dunno. i mean regardless of what special attack they do in the air collider should suck them in no mater what, instead of them being completely unaffected by magnetism at all. New possible supers super magnetism 720 for 100% heat same as CT unlimited tager The Magnetic Pull on 720 is already really good. Making CT unlimited Tager status would be too strong at a footsies level. VTC>720 would be really difficult to deal with in a lot of cases unless you're full screen. thats why its would be for 100% heat only super Air buster Air-to-Air Supers are really difficult to work with. I think something along the lines of a Super Collider could be plausible, but would need to balanced very well. Moderate damage, good startup, good for reads not guesses. I dunno, thats a very hard concept to work with. i was thinking ground to air buster. like Heavenly Potemkin Buster. many people said this already i liked reading your thoughts and you agreed to most all of my points. my comments in red to clarify some of the points that weren't clear. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CrazyI-nomitsu Report post Posted August 8, 2011 I read this first and was like "Really? When I scanned orion's reply I only saw about 7 or 8 worth agreeing with at a glance." And I stand corrected. He agreed with 9. on a list of would looks to be about 30 suggestions (So almost all is about 1 in 3?). I didn't think the beam super would fly. I apologize Tagertime. A beam super appeals to people. I didn't give you enough credit. That said, most of your suggestions were goofy, unnecessary or broken and just explaining those would have taken me a long time, since I'm so long winded. I'm glad to have left it to orion. On a much more productive note I've found Orion's notes very enlightening to our philosophical differences. I don't really need tager to be any stronger on wake up, and I don't want him to have a tool that is extremely strong against zoning. I would be quite satisfied with tager if they would stop taking away his modest utilities everytime they give him something new. There are just a few minor roll backs, and frame data adjustments, I'm talking things like changes to a single frame, that would improve Tager's match ups in a modest way. Now this is where I explain why I never considered myself a pessimist about Tager. I Like tager. If you completely redid Tager I don't know if I'd like him, if you gave him some sort of broken tool, I'd be kinda pissed off. If you gave him something completely out of character, like a dash, It better be a really shitty hop otherwise it really doesn't belong. I wasn't going to get CT. I got it because Tager looked fun and different and he is. I'm pissed and bitch and moan when they nerf him because what little he had was a lot of fun to me. I Love J.D whiff, 6A jc, IB 360B and in kinda the same vain I loved whiffing bursts through moves. I even liked playing against all of the broken CT characters. I hate when they give him Stupid buffs, because I had to trade in the stuff I liked for it. EDIT: Damage is relative, I played CT not that long ago, compared to the rest of the cast our damage wasn't That amazing. The real buff was that if we baited a burst or got a successful mix up after a combo we straight up killed them, but we weren't the only ones who could do that, and several characters did it much better than Tager. http://my.deviantart.com/messages/#/d45tijs First look at that picture. It's awesome. But to answer your edit to your post. It's better than burning all my meter for 5k or my spark meter for a 3k combo. In other words, it's better than nothing. I mean I want to hurt them other making them fall for silly tricks. Is that hard to ask brother? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites