[CS2] Iron Tager General Discussion

[OrionXElite]

Ok in all honesty, the Beam Super is me just being optimistic and it goes with a theory I had on the way back from EVO that went with my "Give Tager a stock amount of Sparks" concept. The idea was essentially that Tager starts out with 1 Spark Bolt filling half of a 2 Stock Gauge(Unlimited Tager). Then you can use them for a variety of things. It would help a bit with zoning as you don't have to rely on just ONE guess to try and get you started with some kind of momentum. Having 2 makes the neutral game a lot different. What would you use them for? Getting in? Magnetism? REALLY long combos that builds TONS of meter or I had this random thought that maybe he could have a 2 Stock, 50 Meter beam style Super as an even faster reactionary tool. But again, just a wishful thinking, I know its illogical as hell and stupid :3

As for Tager's meter usage, oddly enough its not as off scale as it may seem in terms of damage. What kills him is WHEN he has to use his meter. Tager is usually stuck tacking on a super at the end of combos. Thats pretty much the ONLY time its useful combo wise. Everyone else can get roughly the same damage using meter for an RC but they build most of it back during the damn combo. Like take Valk for instance: on a standing opponent, you have to go 5B>5C>236A>RC>etc. you get a big long combo after that and you end up getting back around 40 of the meter you spent to get the combo. If Tager had that kind of meter utility, he'd be a lot stronger. But his meter utility usually involves supers at the end of combos, gimmicks and making pressure safe.

I think an AA super is a manageable concept but it needs to be treated in the way as it has in the past. One super to cover one option and a good non super option to cover the other. Potemkin, Zangief and THawk all abide by this rule. Potemkin has Pot Buster and Heavenly to cover ground and air. In SF, Zangief has 360/720 and Lariat and THawk has his 360/720 and his DP. Not to mention in SSF4, Zangief and THawk both have to choose between having really scary ground game or really scary air game. NOT both. So what they really need to do is give Tager more reliable AA option. Collider needs to be head invul sooner and longer and its to have a better hitbox/hurtbox so you can't get fucked over on it. Damage on it is fine. Collider is one of the better starters for him so its great if he can begin with it cause he gets good damage, meter and GF oki. Collider is only really good as a yomi tool, not an AA as it should be.

[Osuna]

I don't like frequent comparisons to SF because I really think they have lately not done a very good job with their grapplers. And Potemkin didn't use heavenly much, his 6P is a great anti air and it gives him oki. And his oki was actually awesome.

Anywho, I find the thing that sucks about collider is actually that it's too slow to be reliable, causing it to whiff on a lot of air based aggression. The invinciblity isn't frame one but it kickis in a lot earlier than 2C, yet 2C is often better to go for simply because it goes active a lot faster.

Also, collider being good damage for us is just sad. Collidering an unmaged makoto makes me die a little inside.

[bblader1]

Well I wouldn't mind a way to cancel 6A's swing... I have a really bad tendency to give Hakumen a free astral when I 6A him with full meter and then I see the astral flash, realize I'm fucked, and have to deal with it as there's not a damn thing I can do about it >_>

And while T.Hawk in Super isn't a shining example of what the grappler should be, he is in a much better boat than Tager so the comparison isn't THAT offensive. He has tools to get in (EX Dive and Spire both go through projectiles and are much much better than sledge), he has antiairs that don't suck (Which is good as people will usually try to jump your 360s, so Hawk does have kind of a mixup game), his command grabs are untechable even though you can't tick into them (Which is bullshit, by the way) unlike how people can just tech out of Tager's throws and deny him any real damage.

And yay, I'm not the only one who thinks Collider is all fucked up. :D But, really, they've had three games to fix it, you'd think they'd have caught on by now...

[Manta]

Tager's throws are untechable, what are you talking about?

[toanenadiz]

And while T.Hawk in Super isn't a shining example of what the grappler should be, [...] his command grabs are untechable even though you can't tick into them (Which is bullshit, by the way) unlike how people can just tech out of Tager's throws and deny him any real damage.

Umm...T.Hawk can tick throw. Are you sure you aren't confusing tick throws with something else?

[bblader1]

Whoops, I was consulting the frame data on dustloop and not this video. That'll teach me.

Umm...T.Hawk can tick throw. Are you sure you aren't confusing tick throws with something else?

He can? I can name you about 20 ticks that should work but don't for absolutely no reason except to confine hawk to the lower tiers. Jump Roundhouse won't tick into super, for instance, and I tried and failed standing fierce into Jab360, too.

[toanenadiz]

He can? I can name you about 20 ticks that should work but don't for absolutely no reason except to confine hawk to the lower tiers. Jump Roundhouse won't tick into super, for instance, and I tried and failed standing fierce into Jab360, too.

Jump Roundhouse works if you wait for them to get out of blockstun. Standing Fierce fails because it pushes your opponent away, which is actually a good thing considering it is minus on block and not special cancellable. If you are talking about the close version, just use your frame advantage to walk slightly forward and continue your pressure(which also lets you throw).

[A.X.I.S.]

Ok I am gonna sort through this.

Shame someone ate the tortitos.

[Astaroth136]

So, here's a little snip of me doing Tager things in a huge, three-day tournament that was in TN last month. Forewarning, I was in Marvel mode since I had played it all day the day before (while placing 4th out of 80-something people), and I was sleep deprived. I don't usually play this bad, not breaking purple grabs, botching inputs, missing opportunities, etc. Axis can back me up on that. lol

I linked the hypest part. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7K6ZsXDn6KE&feature=player_profilepage#t=321s

[A.X.I.S.]

Ok that was funny as all hell.

[Astaroth136]

Ok that was funny as all hell.

I knew you would appreciate such high level trolling.

[mAc Chaos]

that was awesome

[bblader1]

Jump Roundhouse works if you wait for them to get out of blockstun. Standing Fierce fails because it pushes your opponent away, which is actually a good thing considering it is minus on block and not special cancellable. If you are talking about the close version, just use your frame advantage to walk slightly forward and continue your pressure(which also lets you throw).

...No wonder, lol. I should have figured ticks work differently in SF...

Guess I'll have to start working on that timing.

[TagerTime]

Tager's throws are untechable, what are you talking about?

Ok again for those still dont understand what i meant

When you 360 or 720 someone during their hitstun or blockstun it results in a purple exclamation mark throw. What i would like to see changed for tager is that when you 360 or 720 someone during their hitstun or blockstun it results in a green exclamation mark throw instead of a purple exclamation mark throw. They would still be able to tech out of the throw but just not have 10 years to do it. It would be exactly the same as teching a normal green exclamation mark throw.

Since Tager is the only grappler he would be the only one to have this special property added to his command grabs. It makes tager a little better. Since most people still cant tech green exclamation throws reliably it makes using command grabs in a combo or block string a somewhat viable tactic.This way you can alternate between going for untechable command grab or purposely trying to use command grab in a combo or blockstring. Purposely or accidentally miss time a tick throw after a normal or rapid. They would have to be ready to throw tech at all times when tager is on the offensive. I dont care if someone dont like this, you probly are not good at teching green throws, so just get better at it lol.

Of course tager needs a much better anti air, but i doubt they gona make collider good enough or give him new anti air animations in this balance patch though.

All of my responses are in Bold, not all of them are negative, they are all my personal opinions based on the point at hand.

improved standalone Terra Break (usable as a reversal)

COULD be useful but we already have 720 so kinda not necessary.

But i like it if it has a big enough hit box to also beat jump ins, with low proration for good damage combos off of wall bounce.

[CrazyI-nomitsu]

guys.....I just realize something. We're asking for buffs fro ma guy that hates grapples. Do you think he would listen? Not saying he would. I'm just asking a question.

[Koopa_Klawz]

pfft i'm not getting my hopes for tager being buffed again. it's obvious pachi/mori/whoever does the gameplay is a pussy.

[OrionXElite]

Green command grabs during combos and block strings I understand, but my only issue is the illogical nature of it. You'd have to make command grabs catch out of the air or else there's no point in cause all of Tagers combos need to be off the ground for the most part.

[A.X.I.S.]

His point was to make it grab during block/hitstun so instead of purple its green.

This idea is too damn wrong.

On so many levels.

It ignores the game rules no matter how bad he is this ignores a system mechanic.

It's really really wrong and way too strong.

And lastly its wrong! like catholic priest going in on altar boy wrong.

[Dacidbro]

What AXIS said. It just hyperbolates certain matchups (Tager would likely be 55 or 6-4 against all characters with weak defense) without solving his difficult matchups (Zoners with a reversal? Still 6-4 their favor)

[bblader1]

Well, getting Tager to have a good matchup against characters who aren't named Noel is a start, at least...

[CrazyI-nomitsu]

I think giving us a good match up against ragna, Hakuman, carl, and makoto is good.

[Dacidbro]

I think aiming for neutral matchups is more intelligent, so looking for tools that help with zoners is a better way to spend your daydreams.

[Edalborez]

Projectile-invul-startup (from 1F?) Spark would be a great start, of course.

And, not to go hopeless-wishlist-mode but, something like Slidehead.

Just... make at least one of his anti-airs not always stuffed by practically everything.

[Dacidbro]

Tager's anti airs are already great.. (2A, 2C, jump grab should be all anyone could ever need)

Projectile invulnerable spark bolt sounds very potent, but honestly it does sound fair. It would make the "Keep your gun loaded" strategy really effective. It might be a little too much against characters like Lambda though, who really have very little other than their zoning.

It's definitely a good idea though, especially since the effectivity could be scaled down in terms of how fast it activates projectile invulnerability.

[A.X.I.S.]

Tager is my favorite character, he lacks options like all the time and he can still bullshit out.

Even on good players!