[CS2] Iron Tager General Discussion

[A.X.I.S.]

You're having difficulty guard breaking with TAGER?

I am asking the same question.

[CrazyI-nomitsu]

Oh boy...you two are going to get a kick out of this. I rarely get guard breaks. So, yes, I do have trouble guradbreaking with Tager. Go ahead and laugh. I know you two well enough to take it like a man.

[Mucky]

Guard breaking is easy, but you kinda have to go out of your way for it.

Every time you jump in on someone with j.B you follow up with 2B > 2C > 3C. Bam, 2 primers gone. Full screen spark bolts contribute to guard breaking too.

Green bursts make it even easier, they're like a cue for Tager to drop his mix-up game and go for the guard break.

They could do a more GG styled negative penalty, it kicks in faster and you lose you heat.

Of course this makes less sense in the world of BB, in GG everything tied back to tension, in BB all these elements are separate.

I would've liked negative penalty better if it reduced your damage instead of making you take more damage.

If you're able to run away from someone to the point of getting negative penalty, most likely you'll be able to keep running away for as long as you want. The point is to catch the other guy doing something stupid/risky to try to catch you. All negative penalty does is increase that guy's damage if he gets in. But that's the whole problem; he hasn't been able to get in, so how is negative penalty supposed to change that? And of course, as soon as you land a hit and confirm it into a combo, the penalty goes away. If it reduced your damage, not only would the advantage you were trying to get be diminished (free combo for laming someone out and forcing them to chase you), it also wouldn't go away if the other guy hit you, because that doesn't count as an aggressive action on your part. The way it works now, you never feel any penalty as long as you don't get hit.

[A.X.I.S.]

Oh boy...you two are going to get a kick out of this. I rarely get guard breaks. So, yes, I do have trouble guradbreaking with Tager. Go ahead and laugh. I know you two well enough to take it like a man.

That's like impossible unless you are not using 2C>3C/spark/6C/elbow/MTW/your head.

@ Mucky: That post was so bad...why did you say that.

Negative penalty is made to punish run away, reducing the damage they take only encourages it some more.

Negative penalty does and I am ok with that.

[Mucky]

@ Mucky: That post was so bad...why did you say that.

Negative penalty is made to punish run away, reducing the damage they take only encourages it some more.

Negative penalty does and I am ok with that.

What?

I meant reduce the damage they DO, not the damage they RECEIVE. That would be completely senseless.

[FlyingVe]

Except that it gets negated by doing stuff. So the thing that gets punished (damage) is eliminated by doing damage. The way they do it now, you hitting them in negative, doesn't make the negative go away.

[Osuna]

I scold people when they get guard broken by Tager. All of our guard break moves are unsafe except spark. They can also barrier a few times to save the last primer, so to have a guaranteed guard break you need them to have barriered at least a moderate amount, be very low on primer and be next to you with plenty of meter. Preferably post burst so they don't just burst after the break. Or they could have bursted twice I guess.

I'd say there are still several characters better at guard breaking than Tager. It happens as a matter of course sometimes, but it's not in itself a viable strategy, since it relies on the opponent making misjudgments. Someone trying to go for a guard break has to take risks or spend resources, and the way to heal back primers is to play against Tager's weaknesses.

[Lumination]

Tager's guard breaking is sad. Requires heat to really be able to work. And then, if they decide to try chicken blocking and they run out of barrier, you get a mid-air guard break, which lets us do pretty abysmal damage from a 2B starter.

[Manta]

Give 2D guard primer breaking, problem solved?

[OrionXElite]

Tager's guard breaking is sad. Requires heat to really be able to work. And then, if they decide to try chicken blocking and they run out of barrier, you get a mid-air guard break, which lets us do pretty abysmal damage from a 2B starter.

Whats abysmal about 3.1k assuming you Guard Break with Spark Bolt?? Full combo gets you 100 MORE Damage than you would usually get for a 2B Starter combo so I don't find that much of anything to complain about really :3

[Manta]

Because it's not as troll as getting a fullscreen 720 Drag. Getting a 360B in for free is better than any air combo starter you have.

[OrionXElite]

Hell in the corner, you can do more damage than a 720 if you start with a 360B and have Spark Bolt. If you have 60 meter when you start it, you'll build 40 more during the combo to get a Terra Break. That would be the most optimal confirm assuming they have no Bursts.

But in most cases, you'd likely be midscreen where you won't always have the option of comboing after a Buster so taking a 2B/2C combo for a solid 40-45 Heat wouldn't be a bad thing really :3

[CrazyI-nomitsu]

That's like impossible unless you are not using 2C>3C/spark/6C/elbow/MTW/your head.

@ Mucky: That post was so bad...why did you say that.

Negative penalty is made to punish run away, reducing the damage they take only encourages it some more.

Negative penalty does and I am ok with that.

I use all of those moves, and it doesn't happen as often.

I scold people when they get guard broken by Tager. All of our guard break moves are unsafe except spark. They can also barrier a few times to save the last primer, so to have a guaranteed guard break you need them to have barriered at least a moderate amount, be very low on primer and be next to you with plenty of meter. Preferably post burst so they don't just burst after the break. Or they could have bursted twice I guess.

I'd say there are still several characters better at guard breaking than Tager. It happens as a matter of course sometimes, but it's not in itself a viable strategy, since it relies on the opponent making misjudgments. Someone trying to go for a guard break has to take risks or spend resources, and the way to heal back primers is to play against Tager's weaknesses.

This.

[Manta]

Hell in the corner, you can do more damage than a 720 if you start with a 360B and have Spark Bolt. If you have 60 meter when you start it, you'll build 40 more during the combo to get a Terra Break. That would be the most optimal confirm assuming they have no Bursts.

But in most cases, you'd likely be midscreen where you won't always have the option of comboing after a Buster so taking a 2B/2C combo for a solid 40-45 Heat wouldn't be a bad thing really :3

Still makes me cry when I see people try and fail to get the 2B 623C to work after a 360B when they have a sparkbolt available and the combo would win them the round. I am sometimes that person too.

[Osmond]

Still makes me cry when I see people try and fail to get the 2B 623C to work after a 360B when they have a sparkbolt available and the combo would win them the round. I am sometimes that person too.

Personally, I thought 360B > 2B > 632C only worked in the corner, and if you are in the situation that allowed you to pull it off. It is a "Why the hell not" moment, but can you really pull that off midscreen or am I misreading you?

[Tetra - K]

Personally, I thought 360B > 2B > 632C only worked in the corner, and if you are in the situation that allowed you to pull it off. It is a "Why the hell not" moment, but can you really pull that off midscreen or am I misreading you?

Combo discussion topic.

[Manta]

Personally, I thought 360B > 2B > 632C only worked in the corner, and if you are in the situation that allowed you to pull it off. It is a "Why the hell not" moment, but can you really pull that off midscreen or am I misreading you?

Short answer: Yes

Long Answer: If you do a 8 frame step forward first, with most of the characters, not jin, don't need to do it with Rachel or Tager (use 5C >6A).

[A.X.I.S.]

Tager's guard breaking is sad. Requires heat to really be able to work. And then, if they decide to try chicken blocking and they run out of barrier, you get a mid-air guard break, which lets us do pretty abysmal damage from a 2B starter.

Why are you using 2B for a air guard break starter?

Stop that use 5C/6C or anything with 100 p1.

I normally don't have problems guard breaking people, hell most the time I am not even trying to break primers, Either I am doing shitty Tager mix up or I am trying to magnetize them.

[OrionXElite]

P1 doesn't apply to the first hit of the combo for a Guard Break according to the system guide. If I have interpreted it right, I believe the P1 of every attack is replaced with 90% and then just uses the P2 as normal but it does not affect untech time in any way. So you wanna start with either 5C or 2C in most general cases. j.2C if you're feeling like a troll :3

[Manta]

You don't need to worry about p1 on a guard break. It has a forced p1 of 90% iirc. Go for 6B > 2C.

[A.X.I.S.]

I didn't know that good stuff looking at the system guide.

Breaking guards should not be a go to strat, it should just happen.

Kinda like losing to Arakune.

[Lumination]

Whats abysmal about 3.1k assuming you Guard Break with Spark Bolt?? Full combo gets you 100 MORE Damage than you would usually get for a 2B Starter combo so I don't find that much of anything to complain about really :3

Oh, it's good Tager damage. Bad damage compared to anyone else with 50 heat. Does the Spark Bolt hold any significance here that I'm not aware of?

Why are you using 2B for a air guard break starter?

Stop that use 5C/6C or anything with 100 p1.

From what I remember (not much because I don't GO FOR GARD BRAKES), the wall bounce on midair guard break sucks. So if you're midscreen, 5C won't reach. Sometimes, 2D to travel then 6B won't be fast enough either. From my limited experience, 2D to travel, walk, 2B seems to be the best. But pfft. Hell if I know. I don't do them. And yeah, that whole p1/p2 business.

[Brice]

or you could do like the troll combo vid with the Yatta! music and go spark bolt > AC > 236236B or just go for 6B...

because if you're going to throw a spark bolt, look if it's gonna break the guard and even if they block with barrier you are pretty much safe-ish...

[Dacidbro]

If you have 50 meter with Tager his guard break is something unholy. If you make someone block something like 6B you just got a guaranteed quick 4 primers broken if you really want to (Something like 6B 236A 236A RC 6C spark) or even more if you're willing to take a risk or they have bad reversals.

Really, Tager's guard break isn't that bad at all. Just wait until they burst once then go to town. It's almost unavoidable if you pick your timing correctly, and his reward for it is actually really high.

Also something I learned from my studies with music, you can convince your opponents of the future with something like this then pull the rug out from under them halfway. If you start with something like 6B 236A 236A RC, your opponent will always expect you to try to guard break, which is why if you follow with something like 236B instead, they will frequently miss their IB or try to jump out unsuccessfully, etc. Or even just empty buster. Because I promise you, they want that IB so they won't get crushed.

[Osuna]

If you have 50 meter with Tager his guard break is something unholy. If you make someone block something like 6B you just got a guaranteed quick 4 primers broken if you really want to (Something like 6B 236A 236A RC 6C spark) or even more if you're willing to take a risk or they have bad reversals.

Really, Tager's guard break isn't that bad at all. Just wait until they burst once then go to town. It's almost unavoidable if you pick your timing correctly, and his reward for it is actually really high.

No offense dacid, but what the hell?

What kind of insane scub, what kind of Character could be forced to block all of those insanely slow moves with big gaps between them even with the RC? Also 6B doesn't break primer, it was too plausible I guess.

And this all requires an opponent next to you, blocking after a burst, which isn't particularly easy to get and that Insanely Bad string you suggested that breaks 3 primers Won't break them post burst if they just barrier the last one. And you've just spent 50 meter and spark. That's assuming they can't/don't do anything in the sledge gap on reaction or in the huge 6C gap, and they can't react to our slow overhead, but somehow block it anyway. In this situation you could have just 360B'd for over 5k, but even aside from that it's bad.

You'd need to hold a lot of advantage to Try it (Meter, spark they have to burst and not have much meter, and for some reason afraid to reversal the obvious gaps or just avoid the first overhead), and then it eliminates most of it with no guaranteed returns.

Asledge Bsledge, is not a mix up, you can and should option select it. There's a huge gaps between what you have to do for both. Ragna can even option select you Not following up Without IB if you're close enough to be ID'ed.

IB doesn't stop them from getting crushed, or give you any particular opportunity to throw in the mentioned string without a rapid. The correct mix up is to throw them out of barrier because they can't jump.

And rapiding to 6C which should be punishe not IB because of how slow it is, and mixing it up with Bsledge which is even slower is horrible. Walk forward throw is a maybe, but again your entire mix up is beaten by them attacking you instead of taking the whole thing for some reason. The mix up potential isn't optimal, and is very expensive. The string is vulnerable from start to finish and at any point going for the suggested mix ups is pretty rough.