[CS2] Iron Tager General Discussion

[A.X.I.S.]

Oh, it's good Tager damage. Bad damage compared to anyone else with 50 heat. Does the Spark Bolt hold any significance here that I'm not aware of?

From what I remember (not much because I don't GO FOR GARD BRAKES), the wall bounce on midair guard break sucks. So if you're midscreen, 5C won't reach. Sometimes, 2D to travel then 6B won't be fast enough either. From my limited experience, 2D to travel, walk, 2B seems to be the best. But pfft. Hell if I know. I don't do them. And yeah, that whole p1/p2 business.

I never had 5C whiff after a air guard break regardless of screen and even then if I feel it's not gonna connect then I just use 6C.

[Manta]

If you have 50 meter with Tager his guard break is something unholy. If you make someone block something like 6B you just got a guaranteed quick 4 primers broken if you really want to (Something like 6B 236A 236A RC 6C spark) or even more if you're willing to take a risk or they have bad reversals.

Really, Tager's guard break isn't that bad at all. Just wait until they burst once then go to town. It's almost unavoidable if you pick your timing correctly, and his reward for it is actually really high.

Also something I learned from my studies with music, you can convince your opponents of the future with something like this then pull the rug out from under them halfway. If you start with something like 6B 236A 236A RC, your opponent will always expect you to try to guard break, which is why if you follow with something like 236B instead, they will frequently miss their IB or try to jump out unsuccessfully, etc. Or even just empty buster. Because I promise you, they want that IB so they won't get crushed.

Did you miss the memo? 6B doesn't break primers anymore.

[A.X.I.S.]

Don't forget that 236A/B>236A both leave a gap big enough for DP without mashing.

They need to fix that...or do something with it.

[OrionXElite]

Oh, it's good Tager damage. Bad damage compared to anyone else with 50 heat. Does the Spark Bolt hold any significance here that I'm not aware of?

I only mentioned that as to say that if Guard Break with Spark Bolt, you'll have the magnetism for a full combo off of anything.

[Dacidbro]

Did you miss the memo? 6B doesn't break primers anymore.

Yep, missed that memo

That does hit it pretty hard. He can still certainly do it. though, using all the other things I said and others.

[Dacidbro]

No offense dacid, but what the hell?

What kind of insane scub, what kind of Character could be forced to block all of those insanely slow moves with big gaps between them even with the RC? Also 6B doesn't break primer, it was too plausible I guess.

Unless they have a DP, they are stuck without IB on most of what I mentioned, or if not very few people are confident enough to know the timing on obscure stun

And this all requires an opponent next to you, blocking after a burst, which isn't particularly easy to get and that Insanely Bad string you suggested that breaks 3 primers Won't break them post burst if they just barrier the last one. And you've just spent 50 meter and spark. That's assuming they can't/don't do anything in the sledge gap on reaction or in the huge 6C gap, and they can't react to our slow overhead, but somehow block it anyway. In this situation you could have just 360B'd for over 5k, but even aside from that it's bad.

Ofc I didn't know they removed 6B primer break. And when you RC 236A to 6C they have to react to it to successfully punish. It's only upper single digits of frames gap, to say that's inapplicable is to say mix up is hopeless in the first place, since people get stuck blocking things even when it's more unsafe than that. Also, 6C really isn't THAT slow. It's not fast, but saying it's slow is a bit of an exaggeration when Ragna's 6B is only 2 frames slower, etc. Saying you could have just 360B'd is a very shallow argument imo, keeping other venues of options open is always a good idea.

You'd need to hold a lot of advantage to Try it (Meter, spark they have to burst and not have much meter, and for some reason afraid to reversal the obvious gaps or just avoid the first overhead), and then it eliminates most of it with no guaranteed returns.

I'm aware of the advantages necessary, this is true for most characters guard breaking. I'm saying that when it's correctly seen, the opportunity for guard break is something you should take advantage of. There are numerous set ups especially on characters with weak or no defensive choices to break a lot of primers fast just for not escaping one block-trap

Asledge Bsledge, is not a mix up, you can and should option select it. There's a huge gaps between what you have to do for both. Ragna can even option select you Not following up Without IB if you're close enough to be ID'ed.

Come off it, there are plenty of ways to trap non-DP OS's to that. If you delay your A sledge enough to leave a 2-4f gap you'll catch a mash 'OS' . Ragna of course has some of the best defensive options, using him as a reference is using the worst case scenario. Almost all of what I said doesn't apply to Ragna

IB doesn't stop them from getting crushed, or give you any particular opportunity to throw in the mentioned string without a rapid. The correct mix up is to throw them out of barrier because they can't jump.

I know IB doesn't stop from being crushed, I meant IB to be able to punish the followup. Asledge > followup is a frame trap, so you need to IB to get out of that part.

And rapiding to 6C which should be punishe not IB because of how slow it is, and mixing it up with Bsledge which is even slower is horrible. Walk forward throw is a maybe, but again your entire mix up is beaten by them attacking you instead of taking the whole thing for some reason. The mix up potential isn't optimal, and is very expensive. The string is vulnerable from start to finish and at any point going for the suggested mix ups is pretty rough.

It's conditioning. "unsafe" just means you're giving them reasons to push buttons at stupid times, and they'll pay for it later

Responses in bold. It's okay if you don't agree.

[Osuna]

Responses in bold. It's okay if you don't agree.

Point number one, Asledge whenever seen or expected ought to be instant blocked as part of the option select. Assuming they have no reversal, and have missed the instant block, which is plausible enough I think, you have spent 50 meter to break 1 primer.

Point 2 Ragna's 6B is 4 frames faster than 6C and his 6B is not well known for being difficult to block or stuff. That's slow. There is no argument to be made there. That is slow. That leaves a 10 frame gap, which has 2 digits you may note. Even a reversaless person who did not IB, would likely have ~22 frames to recognize the animation and press the A button, which is plenty plausible unless they are surprised, which isn't fair to assume. Options are good, but it would certainly be a waste of time to spend 50 meter and a spark bolt to land a 360B, when the set up could only be done in situations where you could have landed a 360B. Admittedly the 6B might hit and get you some meter for very little damage, but you already have close to 50 for your string And spark bolt, so at least for me, it would not be a preferable situation. 360B is also unreactionably fast unlike 6B. That's my personal preference there.

Point 3. My beef with the resource intensive nature of purposefully going for a guard break is that there are no Safe ways to break more than 2 primers and to have a clear shot at a break you need to be able to break 4 if they have a full barrier gauge, which they should because they are fighting Tager. It is a high risk move that can only be done when you're in good shape, it's just bad management.

Point 4, The IB range is is pretty lenient, and you'd have to wait for the hit stop to go away before you could delay it, which is telling. You can try to do stuff, but if they botch the OS they will still block the Asledge often because of how slow Bsledge is and how much time they have to hit 5A, if they botch it really bad they get hit by the asledge for a very sad combo. Asledge is dangerous in block strings, for Tager that is. If you want to get technical Asledge is slow enough that a human looking for sledge start up could realistically go for an IB on reaction and still punish if it was a Bsledge.

Point 5, The two things you're using to bait them, are slow and really really slow. Seriously, It would work for a little while as a mix up until a reasonable person stopped getting surprised. I suppose you could rapid walk up and do a low throw, but with how long the overhead or the Bsledge (Why would you even think of Bsledge?) takes it'll be hard to confuse it for anything else.

Dacid, I appreciate you putting thought into Tager and stirring discussion, but a whole lot of the things you state about Tager should have been asked about Tager instead. You have shown a couple of times that you don't yet know his move properties, but you keep telling us stuff you've derived from those properties you don't know. You confidently and excitedly tell people, perhaps people new to Tager, how they should play him. You tell them frame data, and properties, and strategies that you have undeserved confidence in. That is harmful, and I expect better from you. You even used the word "Guaranteed", when talking about a 4 primer string that broke 3 primers and had multiple gaps.

Tager's guard break changes were discussed at length when they were first announced and many people spent a lot of meter and spark making them work online and casually, but when you take them further or even just extrapolate to the logical conclusion it is a weak strategy. A gimmick. I'd be happy to see you come up with something solid, but a lot of people tried and got no where meaningful. There's actually better guard break strings than the one we're currently tweaking but they're also not that great.

For the first time ever I'm mad at you. So I'm sorry if this came out rough.

[Dacidbro]

You're right, my frame data talk has been consistently several frames off. I apologize, I've been running it all by memory, keeping track of so many characters is taxing. Honestly most of my mistakes have not been incredibly large. 6B not breaking a primer is large, and like I already said I didn't know that change.

2: Yes, people often block it, but that's just blocking it. That's all you're looking for here anyway. For them to effectively mash, they have to react to it even faster than if it were Ragna's 6B, but you have more options available because you have just used a RC. To say that 6C is just horrifyingly slow and it's useless in every scenario is fatalistic to a grand flaw, that's not how it really works. Yes, they have the time to mash. In theory. In practice there ARE ways to condition your opponents. No, don't use it against characters with DPs. I respect you enough to imagine that's common sense. In any case, the only reason I had mentioned 6B in this string is because it used to break a primer.

3: I agree that you should not commonly go for guard breaks, but I think Tager has plenty of reasons to shoot for it against the right characters. Since the suggestions I made were a touch looser than the frames I thought I remembered indicated, you can also press 3C on block against a number of strong characters and the punish you'll take for it is very low (Noel or Hazama without meter are not going to hit you hard for it) and nearly guarantee yourself the correct circumstances later for a forced guard break, or at least make them worry about it enough to influence their choices. If you have a strong life lead, it can be worth it.

4: Fair points on sledges. When you have meter I feel like that does matter less, but it is inefficient.

5: I would much rather make very slightly inaccurate statements that spur conversation to be corrected than ask anything in this board. If anything is asked, the most strikingly negative response is guaranteed, and I never gain anything. Besides, the statements that I make have not harmed any players. Who is hurt by using tools people aren't using? I haven't played a decent American Tager in a long time, outside of Orion, and my no practice improv Tager can hold his own against some of the strongest players in Norcal, so it's not like I'm just talking with nothing at all to base it off of. The things I say do work, even against strong players.

And if people discussed the guard breaks at length, why do I only see Orion ever use them? They work, well. No matter how gimmicky you say they are, he guard breaks the shit out of people who place well in majors.

[WolfCrimson]

Yo yo yo, I'm feeling pretty crazy right. I'mma gonna put a guard break on your discussions about guard breaks and bring something completely new. It's HYPOTHETICAL BUFFS TIME!

I want to hear Tager mains ideas and opinions on this hypothetical buff: You know how some characters in GG have like a stance cancel move? Like Johnny has mist stance cancel and o-sol has charge cancel (been playing some GG recently). So I thought: if Tager had a way to cancel some of his more unsafe shit so that it's safer, how would it make or break Tager as a grappler?

What I have in mind is this: What if Gadget finger does not require opponents to be downed previously to be able to use? Like you can just cancel his normals into Gadget anytime and let it whiff, but benefit from GF's quick whiff recovery, and even pull them closer a little if they're mag'd, and prevents them from backdashing or jumping out since GF grabs those. Of course it can still catch downed opponents, and it would only be used after the current normals that are special cancellable. What would Tager's close-range game become?

[toanenadiz]

Yo yo yo, I'm feeling pretty crazy right. I'mma gonna put a guard break on your discussions about guard breaks and bring something completely new. It's HYPOTHETICAL BUFFS TIME!

I want to hear Tager mains ideas and opinions on this hypothetical buff: You know how some characters in GG have like a stance cancel move? Like Johnny has mist stance cancel and o-sol has charge cancel (been playing some GG recently). So I thought: if Tager had a way to cancel some of his more unsafe shit so that it's safer, how would it make or break Tager as a grappler?

What I have in mind is this: What if Gadget finger does not require opponents to be downed previously to be able to use? Like you can just cancel his normals into Gadget anytime and let it whiff, but benefit from GF's quick whiff recovery, and even pull them closer a little if they're mag'd, and prevents them from backdashing or jumping out since GF grabs those. Of course it can still catch downed opponents, and it would only be used after the current normals that are special cancellable. What would Tager's close-range game become?

So it would be exactly like what Unlimited Tager does?

[WolfCrimson]

So it would be exactly like what Unlimited Tager does?

Errr... I dunno what U. Tager can do. So if that's what he can do, then yeah.

[Osmond]

U.Tager's Gadget does that exactly, it pick ups the opponent while they are standing or crouching. Basically a 'D' attack with the speed of his 5A, the only downside being it won't work on airborne characters and DP vulnerable of course. I dont know about the idea though, I mean the Gadget guessing game would make it risky as all hell but it might make things more interesting close up.

[WolfCrimson]

Wait, the one I mentioned only picks up downed opponents, not standing or crouching ones. It behaves like normal Tager gadget, not U. Tager gadget.

[Osmond]

So... it just pulls over? I don't know how strong that pull is

[Manta]

If you could use gadget whenever you'd like you'd use it as a mist cancel for any special cancellable move since gadget finger's minimum duration is really short and not very telegraphed at all.

[Osmond]

Never thought of it like that, but then again I never played Johnny much. If it gets out of a few whiff moderately safely and with mag then that would be useful

[WolfCrimson]

If you could use gadget whenever you'd like you'd use it as a mist cancel for any special cancellable move since gadget finger's minimum duration is really short and not very telegraphed at all.

I know, and due to this, since Tager's a grappler character, I think it'd make his close-range game really scary.

[toanenadiz]

If you could use gadget whenever you'd like you'd use it as a mist cancel for any special cancellable move since gadget finger's minimum duration is really short and not very telegraphed at all.

GF minimum duration is 24 frames right?

[WolfCrimson]

GF minimum duration is 24 frames right?

I don't think so... I think the recovery listed is for when it hits, not whiffs.

[FlyingVe]

I know, and due to this, since Tager's a grappler character, I think it'd make his close-range game really scary.

So the idea in a nutshell is, you can cancel moves to make them safer and maybe tack on a little pull at the end. I'll admit that is an interesting idea.

However, Gadget lasts for a total of 24f, so it would only make some moves just a bit safer, and those are moves that we don't get alot of milage out of anyways, all of which would be safer by canceling into something else, like 3C.

Easier answer would be to give us our 4D cancel's back.

[toanenadiz]

Since the moves you will probably use the GF whiff are level 4 moves with 18 frames of blockstun, wouldn't it be dangerous to use it when your opponent is magnetize? 24 frames for GF whiff + the fact that you are bringing them closer means pretty much every character can get a CH 5A for free.

[FlyingVe]

That's a good point actually, they would have less frame disadvantage, but the bad guy would be closer so he could use faster moves. It really sounds like a wash at best.

[Manta]

Most moves are level 4 yes, but if you look at the frame data, most of tager's moves have custom blockstun durations. Some quite long.

[toanenadiz]

Most moves are level 4 yes, but if you look at the frame data, most of tager's moves have custom blockstun durations. Some quite long.

The only ones that have custom blockstun are 5D, 2D and 4D, if I am reading the frame data correctly.

[Manta]

It's still shortening the recovery on a few moves as well. like 6C. If it drags in, you can 360A trap them a little more easily.