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HexaNoid

[CSE] Noel Vermillion Critique And Self-Improvement Thread

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My guess is you're doing the 6C too early and doing 6[6]C (you were running past rags a couple times). Try delaying it a bit and doing the input 6(6C). Probably get someone more qualified to answer.

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I'll give a cookie to the first person who can explain what in hell's name I'm doing wrong.

For those who aren't aware, all I'm trying to do is Luna's midscreen SR combo's.

And yes, about 4minutes into that stream archive, I do try his "Universal method", which also fails at the same spot -- landing that damn 6C after SR.

The link is actually a tight one.

Those times where you didn't move forward after Spring Raid, that is because you did it too early.

Those times you ran forward but still missed, it was because you did it too late.

The key is to learn how to microdash.

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Microdash? You mean tapping 66 to start the dash animation but hitting 6C to have it slide into Ragna's hitbox?

Yeah I'm pretty sure I've done that too but it's not like I can see Noel while he's flying so whatever. I'll keep trying. As of now, the only time I can actually do this is if he doesn't tech midair, but obviously that does me no justice in a real match.

Taking this time to say I don't like how they made her drive less freeflowing than it was in CS2 =| You can call it "being spoiled by CS2 Noel", I still don't like it.

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Slower drive kinda sucks, at this point they might as well just make her drive starters not cancel-able on block and just skip the middle man by making them -10 or something.

I have no issues with them as reversals though.

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My reading comprehension is slipping, I swear. I have to read what you type in videos more often. x_x

Focused on just the universal method for a while last night (again, with Rags as a dummy), I did manage to get it right without blue beating a couple times, but the thing I wasn't doing before was delaying d.5C and d.6C. In other words, Ragna was too high when I launched him in the air with Spring Raid to be able to follow up with anything. At this point, I just have to practice it and get the timing down for that one.

Now for the standard method, I'm still lost... was d.6C supposed to be delayed in that combo?

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My reading comprehension is slipping, I swear. I have to read what you type in videos more often. x_x

Focused on just the universal method for a while last night (again, with Rags as a dummy), I did manage to get it right without blue beating a couple times, but the thing I wasn't doing before was delaying d.5C and d.6C. In other words, Ragna was too high when I launched him in the air with Spring Raid to be able to follow up with anything. At this point, I just have to practice it and get the timing down for that one.

Now for the standard method, I'm still lost... was d.6C supposed to be delayed in that combo?

I never delay d.6C. So I think your timing is still just off.

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And so, after a total of like 7 hours of labwork: Okay I seem to finally be getting the hang of both methods. Now I just practice. :eng101:

Good lookin' out Aco and Luna.

Edited by M.D. Orona

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I am just wondering, I have done a bunch of reading around this forum and will probably get started on the combos thread for Noel later today. I understand the best way to use her is to close the spaces, get up-close, and get them combos in. Her 6A attack is really good, and can be used for a good combo starter to get the person into the air, and do some drive moves like diagonal bottom-to-right C. I'm still getting to understand the terms. But if anyone could mirror match my noel so I can save some replays and see how she's really played would be cool. :)

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If you wanna add me, I'm down to play with you.

My Noel is just a bit weird. Optimal combos aren't something I spend much time practicing. So if you take anything from me, don't let it be the combos that I do. Stick to the combos posted in the combo thread for the best damage output.

Edited by M.D. Orona
Because I can dammit.

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I am just wondering, I have done a bunch of reading around this forum and will probably get started on the combos thread for Noel later today. I understand the best way to use her is to close the spaces, get up-close, and get them combos in. Her 6A attack is really good, and can be used for a good combo starter to get the person into the air, and do some drive moves like diagonal bottom-to-right C. I'm still getting to understand the terms. But if anyone could mirror match my noel so I can save some replays and see how she's really played would be cool. :)

I don't mind playing you either. I'm still in the process of learning the matchups myself, the mirror included. You just gotta find that comfort one for yourself in how much you want to be aggressive and defensive.

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Cool cool, should I add your listed PSNs? You could just add mine as well. I might not be on tonight though, deff tomorrow for most of the day. If you guys want to get some team matches in for the trophees (or help me with it) that'd be sweet too :)

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Sup Guan, I haven't had a chance to play BB on a Vita, and probably never will. Q-Q I'm hoping the net quality is good enough to where your inputs aren't getting super delayed.

Regarding your actual play, I'll just mention two areas that can see improvement.

First thing is your drive usage. From what I can tell, it's random and most likely cause you're just not familiar with which input does what. This gets better as you spend more time with the character, but will also get better as you learn a few combos that has you using the same drive inputs.

Also gonna tell you the same thing I was told a while ago. j.D in neutral is generally a bad idea (as you were doing @0:55 in that match vs Carl). If it whiffs or gets blocked, you're at a disadvantage and can usually get punished. So be careful.

The second thing I wanted to mention was your Haida (Silencer) use. Seems like you're waiting too long to follow up after 3C. Not sure if that's a result of netplay, or if you're waiting for the animation to finish, or because you're on Vita, or something else, but it should be coming out faster than what it is. There was a couple times where Ragna almost rolled out or completely rolled out. That shouldn't be happening.

And again, gonna say the same thing I was told. 3C is also unsafe to use without landing 6B first. Random 3C's aren't a bad thing though, it just means if you fight someone who knows about how Noel works, they're probably going to block 3C and punish you.

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Hmm thanks very much for your help :)

Yeah true, I noticed my drive input are quite messy, will improve on that.

about the second thing, sometimes I did lag and my silencer got delayed but I'll try to input it earlier than usual and see how it goes,

usually I uses 3c because I don't really know when to use 5A, 6A, 5B, 6B, 5C, its like I don't know when to use what moves at what situations x_x

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Hello guys :)

here are my videos, I know I messed up quite a lot of bnb combos due to me playing on a vita and I always whiff combos during online matches for some reason I hope someone could help me improve too. thanks :)

http://youtu.be/3mfqJRvVFIA

http://youtu.be/boYmYSiEWqA

I will follow this up with a little myself. Doc covered a lot of it.

It looks like you have an idea of how the combos are supposed to work. That is a great thing! Getting more practice doing them will help your damage soar. However, it looks like you are very nervous while playing. And the only real cure for that is to....play more! Practice a bit and then go back and try again. Also, keep in mind that there is always going to be lag in netplay so try and not take anything too seriously. And above all else just have fun. :)

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Yeah true, I noticed my drive input are quite messy, will improve on that.

about the second thing, sometimes I did lag and my silencer got delayed but I'll try to input it earlier than usual and see how it goes,

usually I uses 3c because I don't really know when to use 5A, 6A, 5B, 6B, 5C, its like I don't know when to use what moves at what situations x_x

Drive input knowledge will come to you naturally over time as long as you're practicing and spending time with Noel. I believe you'll improve. =)

Well if you can do silencer in training mode or against the CPU with no problems then its either nervousness or lag causing it. If lag IS the real cause, then just keep in mind the following: if there's input delay, that means you have to press buttons while assuming that everything will land. For example, if I do 6B > 3C > Silencer, and I don't see 6B on-screen until I press 3C, that means the lag is bad enough to where you have to know the combo so you can "execute it without seeing the visual cues".

As for understanding when to use Noel's normals ... I can try to break them down a bit.

5A/2A: Used to apply pressure, so it's only really used up-close to stay on the offense and to catch your opponent if he's mashing buttons.

6A: Used exclusively as an anti-air (so if your opponent airdashes and hits j.A, j.B, or whatever, it's used to counter them and start a combo); it can also be used in combo chains, like 2B > 6A > 6C > Stuff, but starting a combo with 6A is dangerous because it's unsafe when blocked.

5B/5C: These are meant as spacing tools. Spacing isn't my strong point, but my understanding is that it's used to keep yourself a safe distance from your opponent but while keeping them on the defensive.

6B: Overhead, only applies really during mix-ups.

EDIT: Sorry Luna. Fixed that 6B bit.

Edited by M.D. Orona

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HOWEVER!!! there is a strong word of advice I can give you for 6B use, Always, always ALWAYS autopilot 6B > 6C, since 6B only gatlings into 6C on hit, it gives you plenty of time to hitconfirm into 6B > 6C > 2C > 3C. If your opponent blocks 6B, then 6C will not come out, and again, you have plenty of time to confirm that, and act accordingly to either cancel 6B into drive, or let 6B recover.

Edited by LunaKage

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Take it from a guy who got spanked by CoopaDaddy on netplay.

•Do not use 4D when Arakune does that j.B descending to the ground a lot. The chances of Noel beating Arakune's j.B with 4D are 75/25 imo. 75% Arakune's j.B beats 4D, 25% Noel's 4D beats it. (Space and/or Timing Depended).

That's what I think.

•For all 4D air FC hit. You can do 4D FC > d.6A Whiff > d.6C > d.6B Whiff > Spring Raid > 66C yatta yatta.

•Never burst when them bugs hit you. Arakune's can easily block that.

•We all can't predict burst. I'll let you know most of Noel's Burst Triggers. (The moves that people/netplayers will most likely burst.)

6C is the most common one. 6C is jump cancelable on hit so when someone burst, jump and block, when you land, you have a opportunity to land that extra 2-4k on Midscreen. If on corner, 3-6k on corner (depending how far you planning to go with the combo.)

Also work with other jump cancelable moves like 5B, 5C, and 6B???

-2B after Muzzle Filter and Air throw. This will most likely happen when someone has like less then 40% of health. Expect that to happen. After baiting that burst, you can go for 66 5A > 6A > 6C > yatta yatta.

• Most of her Drive moves. Tricky!! All I can say is this, if you got heat, spend it, IB it, and dash 5A > 6A > 6C yatta yatta.

If not, eat it like a burger.

•22B or 22C after 3C. Its pretty hard since some people don't know when to let go the B button.

It recovers quick so you should be able to block it with no problem. Sweep it with 3C after baiting the burst.

That should cover the burst tactic. ^^^In general, not just Arakune.

Other then that, not bad.

Edited by TrueGunnerShadow

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Anybody wanna even try and help critique me in these BG's?

Here

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Anybody wanna even try and help critique me in these BG's?

Here

1st Round = Stop letting him abuse 5A on you at neutral like that, our dash goes under that, our 2A goes under that, our 2B, 2C, 3C, 6D, 4D all go under/through that.

2nd Round = Learn optimal Drive and overhead confirms, you hit him with a 4D > d.6A while you were in the corner, and then later you hit him with 6B and did no follow up, if I were to hit those two moves in the same round against a Ragna, he would have been dead(Assuming he didn't burst of course). Remember that you shouldn't be doing 6B > 3C, that is an unsafe hitconfirm, and is also not even all that optimal, instead use 6B > 6C > 2C > 3C, not only does it give you an eternity to hitconfirm, but is also an OS, since if your opponent blocks the overhead, 6C doesn't come out, and you have all the time in the world to figure out what you are going to do next, to call out what your opponent might do to retaliate, because even though 6B is Punishable on IB, you can still cancel it into drive if you think your opponent is going to try and punish.

Also, you need to work on your staggers, 2A > 5B > Recover is only useful about 5% of the time, it's not generally a good idea when you could easily do 2A > 2A and be +1 at virtually the same range.

Match 2:

5C > 3C to fish for counterhits at neutral is risky as fuck, I only suggest doing this on scrubs unless it's supposed to be a CH punish. It's a much better idea to 5B/5C > 236A to fish for CH, because while it leads to less damage, it is much more safe, and still leads to a BnB and corner carry.

Stop autopiloting 5A/2A > 5B > 5C, it's SO BAD, if you MUST autopilot a string for a chance at a hitconfirm, AT LEAST use 5A/2A > 2B > 2C, because not only do you end up at +1 if it's blocked but it is also 3 built in frametraps, and gives you much more time to hitconfim a crouching opponent.

You used Bloom Trigger in a corner combo TWICE and still tried to continue the combo.... don't do that, if you accidentally use a drive/special twice in the same combo, just end the combo there, and try to salvage any kind of knockdown you possibly can. Either that or combo it into Fenrir, which stuff > BT > stuff > BT > Fenrir is actually a big part of our longer corner combos anyway.

Get more used to what to do if a drive string is blocked, pay attention to what good Noels do in that situation, to the untrained eye it looks like flailing, but the BIGGEST difference between Drive Flailing and Failed Drive Salvaging is what the Noel does to try and retain his safety/get back momentum after it happens. Of course this part has ALOT to do with mind games between you and your opponent, so this is the biggest thing a Noel player gains as he gets more experience, so as such, it's a topic for another day lol.

You got hit with Jin's 6C in a blockstring, and it wasn't even a CH, what are you doing?

Match 3:

Stuff > 5C > 2D is not a good idea most of the time.

Drive confirm corner combos off of 2D need to be much shorter than that, 2D > d.6A already prorates like ass, so even though you managed 3.7k off of the combo, you gave up your knockdown, and lost the ability to combo into Fenrir. Keep in mind we do have 2D corner combos that do just as much, but still end in Fenrir for more damage, so I suggest trying something like this: 2D > d.6A > d.6C > d.214D > 66A > 6C(2) > Inch back a bit > 6C > 236A > 66C > j.D > d.6D > d.5B > d.6B > d.5C > d.236D(Last hit only).

Last couple of seconds of round 5: You're silly, keep trying new things though, I notice you have a very nervous disposition in your playstyle, it looks like you're panicking a lot.

Why would you use 5B to poke out of pressure? You're not Ragna.

Overall, you just need to think more when you do stuff. The habits you have that I pointed out, learn how to stop doing them, it could be a slow process, but nothing good is easy.

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This panic things seems to come up alot with me and I won't deny it but It dosen't seem to go away for me.

Typically speaking what is the best option to go from 4D with my back to the corner then?

that 5B abuse was prob from playing Tsubaki

and yer i work on stopping 5ABC drive blockstings and try hit confirming safer maybe one day i make you proud too lol

Inb4 my local scene sees this and dispise me

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