LunaKage Report post Posted September 11, 2013 As an offensive tool? If you're not getting punished for using it, then there's no reason not to use it. However, if you find yourself relying on Drive in places where you should be blocking or respecting the mix-up/pressure you should learn to react accordingly without Drive. It's honestly the crutch that most Noel players rely on and consequently keeps them from learning how to block sufficiently. I think the thing that separates good Noels from the rest is that they know when to use it, when not to use it, and your options if you used it, but didn't get the outcome you wanted. It's easy to just mash drive, but MASTERING how to effectively use drive is a whole different story. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LiveWireX Report post Posted September 11, 2013 Yeah, exactly. People that say she's cheap because you can mash drive usually don't understand how punishable it is and how messed up you can get if you start relying on it. The way I look at Noel is that every one of her moves (including her Drives) are tools, and every tool has a use and a situation, but no tool is the best for every situation. Or, something like that, that makes sense. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hipikachu Report post Posted September 11, 2013 (edited) People that say she's cheap because you can mash drive usually don't understand how punishable it is and how messed up you can get if you start relying on it. I think it's an illusion of understanding the thought process that went behind it. When I get a FC 4D though, people treat it as if it was a braindead reversal into huge damage, which it is in it's own way. The thing is, I do the exact same thing with Hazama's Rising Fang and get away relatively blame-free, sometimes even getting praised for a good call-out. Why? I use the exact same process when using both moves. They insist that being hit with Rising Fang was a reactionary reversal on my part, as opposed to praying and mashing 4D regardless of what's happening on-screen. This is a generalization of how most discussions I've had with opponents went after the initial match: "Rising Fang doesn't lead into fat damage, 4D does." - Dude, I just did an easy 6~7k midscreen on you off a CH Rising Fang. I'm pretty sure you're in trouble regardless which one you get hit by. "That Hazama combo was hard. Noel's is braindead." - Sigh. Are we really discussing this? "You can't even punish 4D on block. It moves her hitbox backward." - C'mon, you have 8 free frames to hit her/get away afterwards. It's nothing compared to Rising Fang's OP knockback. "Anything you do to bait out wakeup 4D gets beaten out by wakeup 2D. This 50/50 is unfair." - Haku 5C, Haz 5C, Valk 2C, etc. And guess what? Not only do these moves beat out both, you'll be dead afterwards if you don't burst. These are P1 100 starters we're talking about here. On the other hand, Rising Fang doesn't even give a damn about highs or lows. "Why should I need infinite matchup knowledge to deal with a scrub character?" - And this, is what goes through every (technical) Noel hater's mind. Edited September 11, 2013 by hipikachu Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LunaKage Report post Posted September 12, 2013 "Why do I need matchup knowledge?" Right there, is when you walk away and never speak to him again. Also, there are ways to OS Noel on wakeup, that's normally what I do. Even if you don't wanna risk that particular OS, you can just use a meaty grab, a meaty grab will beat all drives, 2D isn't grab invulnerable, the only reason it beats grabs normally is because it's considered airborne after frame 4, meaning if you meaty grab correctly you will beat ALL drives. Once the Noel starts breaking your grabs instead of mashing on wakeup, then you can start throw-baiting her, and then the true anti-Noel wakeup game begins, because now you are forcing them to THINK on wakeup, and as such you will start getting away with the stuff you were trying before, because the Noel will no longer be wailing on D 100% of the time. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Litherain-XIII Report post Posted September 12, 2013 Or netplay just happens and the grab whiffs then you get 2D into 3 ~ 4k. immediate response: FUUUUUU!!!!! lol Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RockinGamma Report post Posted September 12, 2013 The Term Wake-up has always confused me, when talking about this game. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mAc Chaos Report post Posted September 12, 2013 What is confusing about it? It is when you are getting up after getting knocked down. Also I don't think Haku 5C beats Noel 4D. Maybe in the corner. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LunaKage Report post Posted September 12, 2013 It beats it in Extend, not anymore in CP though. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LunaKage Report post Posted September 14, 2013 None of that please, if you wanna argue about that kind of thing, take it to PMs. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dreize Report post Posted September 14, 2013 Good thing that I refreshed the page before sending over my wall of text. I'll refute this terribly misinformed argument in a PM as you requested, I much prefer that route anyways. Let's me go all out without worrying about negative repercussions. Please forgive the intrusion. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
00Bubbles00 Report post Posted September 14, 2013 Well as a change of subject, here are some teaser pics of the Noel figure that will be up for pre-order soon. http://myfigurecollection.net/item/130977 As for my on topic post: I noticed that doing random crap is landing me more hits than the textbook stuff. As a noob, this really bad for me learning fundamentals..... its it because every player just seems to know the Noel match up? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Alpha152 Report post Posted September 14, 2013 Most players don't actually know the matchup well due to a lack of moderately strong Noels. As for random crap hitting as opposed to textbook things...part of Noel's play-style is high risk/high reward so doing unexpected things can work sometimes. But if you say that "textbook" things don't seem to work you're most likely not utilizing them to their full potential. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
00Bubbles00 Report post Posted September 14, 2013 That is probably true. I should do more dashing in a poking before resorting to unsafe moves for pressure. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RockinGamma Report post Posted September 23, 2013 Ok. So, Today I played Very badly. I want to blame my tiredness or that I've been playing more kof than bb lately. But Im going to blame My scrubyness. It seems that I don't have any mixups, and opponents often read me like a book. Also Is there any way to punish Mu's 6B? or 41236C? OR ANYTHING? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Alpha152 Report post Posted September 23, 2013 Mu's 6B isn't punishable. At most it's unsafe at -4 when you IB it. As for 63214C it's -10 but the push back generally makes it hard to optimally punish or nonpunishable. If you're close enough you can dash 5B but you won't get much off a standing confirm without meter. However if you're very close you can 5A punish, though I can't recall if IB'ing at that range is necessary. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Litherain-XIII Report post Posted September 23, 2013 (edited) Actually Mu's 6B is punishable with a 4D or 6D but you would have to time it for it to work. you don't wanna try to 4D / 6D it early but rather late as it still nets the counter. this needs a good read and timing execution imo. Its not too hard overall just need a slight delay because if you do it too fast then her 6B second hit will hit you out of your attempt. Edited September 23, 2013 by Litherain-XIII Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Alpha152 Report post Posted September 24, 2013 ...I think you are getting your terminology mixed up Lith. A punish is when you hit an opponent during their recovery of an attack, whether it be whiffed or blocked. Becuase Mu's 6B is -1 on block and -4 on IB, it is "un-punishable" because there is no attack in the game that is active on the fourth frame but it is still "unsafe". As for dealing with 6B prior to its use, 4D and 6D are both legit options albeit risky because of the required timing that Lith mentioned. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Litherain-XIII Report post Posted September 24, 2013 well he did say "anything" to dealing with the 6B overall....besides the 6b is basically whiffing on a 4D attempt due to invincibility lol and being CH out of it towards the last few active frames before in enters recovery. Oh well. I apologize if the "punishable" terminology bothered you. No harm intended Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Alpha152 Report post Posted September 24, 2013 lol no man, the advice you gave was solid. I just didn't want people to misunderstand what a punish was as opposed to using a reversal to beat out an attack. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Litherain-XIII Report post Posted September 24, 2013 true true. Its all good man I should be more thorough in most of my post but normally I just saying things the lazy idc way as of late. its my nigguh side lol XD Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LunaKage Report post Posted September 24, 2013 Man all the discussion happens when I'm out for 15 hours :c Though I have a bit to add to/further the discussion: While blocking 6B and letting it recover was discussed, would we have enough of a gap to interrupt an attempt at canceling 6B? 6B > 63214C is the main string I see used, so is there a big enough gap between 6B and an un-charged 63214C to CH them with a 5B? or maybe do a microdash 4D? I've never tested this, because getting hit by Mu is terrifying, so I usually just block the 63214C and try to find a way back in afterwards. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Demon Wind Bomb Report post Posted September 24, 2013 (edited) Man all the discussion happens when I'm out for 15 hours :c Though I have a bit to add to/further the discussion: While blocking 6B and letting it recover was discussed, would we have enough of a gap to interrupt an attempt at canceling 6B? 6B > 63214C is the main string I see used, so is there a big enough gap between 6B and an un-charged 63214C to CH them with a 5B? or maybe do a microdash 4D? I've never tested this, because getting hit by Mu is terrifying, so I usually just block the 63214C and try to find a way back in afterwards. I don't know about midscreen, but in the corner I've used 4D in the middle of Mu's 6B>63214C string and I was able to CH them due to 4D's invincibility. Edit: Correction. It doesn't CH but we can still combo her with 4D. Edited September 24, 2013 by Demon Wind Bomb Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Alpha152 Report post Posted September 24, 2013 (edited) 6B > 63214C leaves a 1F gap so you can indeed 4D through it! However, she can charge the attack to bait and punish your reversal attempt. The scenario is pretty similar to fighting Tao where you can 4D through most block-strings into 6C, but she can charge the 6C to bait out the 4D. After testing it 4D whiffs mid-screen and hits in the corner as Demon Wind mentioned. But mid-screen if you IB the 2nd hit of 6B, you can 6D! Edited September 24, 2013 by Alpha152 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LunaKage Report post Posted September 24, 2013 In that same vein, if they charge it, I'd assume that would leave enough of a gap to 5B. So I suppose it would be a big guessing game, not something you'd want to do consistently, but a gamble you can make if you notice they like to charge 63214C too much. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Alpha152 Report post Posted September 24, 2013 Indeed it would! And so the meta-game evolves slightly more...lol I actually didn't think about using 5B to call out a charged attack, I'l try using that against Tao as well. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites