[CS2] Makoto vs. Hakumen

[HiagoX]

New game, new thread. Discuss.

[SansProtocol]

I'm sure you meant to title this the "Makoto v Hakumen" thread. Anyway, since I think sharing mutual information is key to improving the community, here's my take (changed to Makoto's POV) that I detailed on the Haku boards.

Moves to watch out for:

• 2B
  
• 5C/2C
  
• 6D/5D
  
• Kishuu/Enma
  
• FC Hotaru
  
• CH 3C
  
  Ground Game:
  
  • Haku's 2B has incredible reach. He will use this to discourage ground approaches along with 3C. Not only is it +2 on block but he can cancel 2B into 5A/5B (both are AU) to react to air approaches on whiff.
    
  • He can use Kishuu -> Enma to go under your 5B/6C and any other above-the-waist attacks so use 2A/2B to beat it out. He can also use Enma to punish a backdash so be aware of that.
    
  • 6D is a nasty thing in this matchup as it will uncover any holes in your blockstrings. An good example is the brief gap between 5CC and 6B, which 6D can activate through. This can be easily avoided if you're aware of holes and can mix it up with throws, lows (2B/2C), or use the bait to reset with a CH into your optimal starters.
    
  • If a Haku player is using 4C in this matchup to do anything more than to establish space (even then), your 5B and 6C will beat it out anywhere closer than about its' max range. Any farther away and you can backdash out of the way. That or you can bait 4C, air dash over it and capitalize on the whiff into your j.B/C CH combos.
    
  • His 6B is low invulnerable through startup and active frames, so it will beat your 2B, 2C, and 3C. It won't do much damage (even on RC) but it's still useful for discouraging your low attacks.
    
    Air Game:
    
    • Hakumen's 5C/2C are great anti-air tools and 5C on AA CH leads 3.6k plus lots of corner carry for 2 stars. 2C is effective against Asteroid Vision as it will cover almost of the area in front of him.
      
    • As always, watch out for Hotaru if Hakumen has at least two stars. FC Hotaru will lead to 4k with his corner loop even as far as about midscreen.
      
    • All but one of his normals (2A) are air unblockable so use your barrier when approaching from the air.
      

    Overall:

    [*]He has ways to keep you out but most are not safe. Bait these unsafe moves (4C, 3C, 2C) and punish accordingly.

    [*]In order to stay safe once you're in, he has to play more D than one might like. Stay on the offensive and make him waste stars to try to keep/get you out. Eventually, your constant attacking will be too much and he'll be at a great disadvantage without meter.

    [*]Most importantly, keep it fresh. Don't become predictable, bait counters in your blockstrings, use throws/lows/delayed body blows in your mix-up. There are some Haku/Tager only resets that will help you confuse and break the Haku player.

    Hope this helps!

[HIGEKING42]

what why is there bang versus hakuman in the makoto forum.

[mAc Chaos]

BANGU OTOSHI

[SansProtocol]

what why is there bang versus hakuman in the makoto forum.

See the first sentence in my post:

I'm sure you meant to title this the "Makoto v Hakumen" thread.

[OmniSScythe]

Nah we actually just counter pick with Bang at this point.

Nice write up, Sans.

[HIGEKING42]

don't ever 236a on haku unless you feel that your opponent won't react in time

[YukiBlue]

Scrub Hakumens will just j.2C > 3C you all the f*cking time. So, I dont really have an answer for it 24/7 other than "Move ASAP"

I can DP it sometimes...But...

lrn2parry?

[HiagoX]

Nah we actually just counter pick with Bang at this point.

Mindfuck tactics and all.

Scrub Hakumens will just j.2C > 3C you all the f*cking time. So, I dont really have an answer for it 24/7 other than "Move ASAP"

I can DP it sometimes...But...

lrn2parry?

You should have enough time for a 6A if that's the case, especially if it's an obvious jump-in.

[milesw]

Yeah was at the arcade today.

Orb oki is a no go.

Alternative oki ideas anyone?

[OmniSScythe]

Basic knockdown, no orb.

Should be possible to low profile Hotaru from a distance with 2B, 5CC as well can OTG a possible roll pretty well.

[StarGazer]

Basic knockdown, no orb.

Should be possible to low profile Hotaru from a distance with 2B, 5CC as well can OTG a possible roll pretty well.

what does OTG means?

is it only me or whenever i parry hakumen i end up in trouble because the parry catch doesn't reach him and his sword is not a part of his hitbox

also shooting star after a 2C from midscreen seems weird and hardly hit him

[Crosell]

off the ground

Its a very awkward match up, I'll post up my tid bits from playing walljumpman later.

(disclaimer I suck at this game, if I post up anything that is wrong or dumb please correct me)

This match up is weird, because Hakumen has a strong ground game and a strong air to ground. I usually feel in control when I can start forcing Air to air confrontations as i can reap bigger rewards in those situations fishing for a j.b counter hit or just taking small bits of corner push and oki. Its best to stay out of the neutral game and start forcing confrontations pretty quick hakumen can be extremely scary with meter. Moves I recommend against are 3c and 2c. 3c has no use due to the lessen invul. Its only use will be if he IAD and you 3c under to change positions but thats about it. 2c you will just get reaction countered and you'll lose momentum pretty quick. His normals are good so you gotta brush up on instant blocking and less 2a mash if you want to get out of his pressure. I believe his foot stomp gets him out of 2a range too which is saddening.

In the corner. This is the worst spot to be ( duh ) Hakumen can pressure you, limit escapes and be safe all at the same time. You need to be watching for a tsubaki or a hotaru, if you jump in the corner just throw up a barrier, most will notice and go for that hotaru for about 4k + . Take your time to get out. Also hakumen corner combos are extremely burst safe, you need to burst right as j.2a comes out to get him off of you, or else you will just eat a reset. I feel gold burst may be better used for this match up. Tsubaki is relatively safe, to be weary before rushing trying to punish. I've eaten so many counters that way.

Thats all for now, feel free to critique

[StarGazer]

i dont see whats wrong with what you wrote up here... nice write up crosell:eng101: (am scrub so yeah i cant see anything )

gonna point out a couple of points to finish this match up

-try to parry carefully(as he always stops you with lows or very long range mid attacks,still works as good AA and catch his demonic 2A pokes)

-remember his throws have a nice range

-use the haku specific combo (after a 6B~C > 214A~C~A > 2D/5D)

-use more throws to counter his Drive mashing

-5A hits him even if he crouch

-avoid using 236A in all the match

-in generally J2C is a move you dont want to use in this match (still you can pop it when he dont expect it to bait his D and so :p)

gonna test parrying tsubaki at its max range to see if i can catch him when he corner you

with this singed out

[Crosell]

i dont see whats wrong with what you wrote up here... nice write up crosell:eng101: (am scrub so yeah i cant see anything )

gonna point out a couple of points to finish this match up

-try to parry carefully(as he always stops you with lows or very long range mid attacks,still works as good AA and catch his demonic 2A pokes)

-remember his throws have a nice range

-use the haku specific combo (after a 6B~C > 214A~C~A > 2D/5D)

-use more throws to counter his Drive mashing

-5A hits him even if he crouch

-avoid using 236A in all the match

-in generally J2C is a move you dont want to use in this match (still you can pop it when he dont expect it to bait his D and so :p)

gonna test parrying tsubaki at its max range to see if i can catch him when he corner you

with this singed out

YOu won't catch him I've already tried. if he spaces it correctly you'll just catch the sword.

[Lord Knight]

General Matchup:

-Annoying. Hakumen wins neutral overall. What we have in our favour is damage and mixups. Minimize random damage and capitalize all hits.

Fullscreen neutral:

- Get to midscreen as quickly and safely as possible.

Midscreen neutral:

- Try to stand just outside of 4C range.

- Hakumen's 5B, 2B, 3C, 5A all do well to keep you out. Watch them and how they move after a whiff. Predict and make your way in.

- Mixup between 214AC, dash 5A/5B, or dash jCC as your main tools for approaching. Essentially, Hakumen has a button to beat all your stuff, but he doesn't have a one button answer.

- If they are hanging in the air a lot, sj jB or 6A them. Always beware Hotaru and jD (and Hotaru whiff > jD)

- Only parry jumpins. Don't parry ground to ground unless he's close.

Hakumen pressure:

- Most of his useful normals (6A, 2A, 2B, 5B) are all plus (+3, +1, +2, and even, respectively). IB is very important.

- 6B is -4. Get used to IB'ing it. Fastest 5A after IB'ing the 2nd hit of 6B should punish all the time. If you want a bigger punish, be cautious. You can try 6B since most Hakumen's like doing 2D right after this move is blocked.

- Very difficult to get out of the corner. Safest best is CA or DP rc. You can IB dp a lot of things, since his pressure is mostly abusing + normals.

- Always be aware of D, Yukikaze, Hotaru, Zantetsu and Tsubaki.

Makoto pressure:

- 5A hits him crouching, so this is the basis of your pressure.

- 5A > 6B for high, 5A > 2B for low. Of course you can throw and try throw reject setups.

- Normal stuff is still fine.

Okizeme:

- For okizeme, make liberal use of 6B > 214x for ender. Basic mixup is 6B > 214AA > 2B/6B/throw/5A purple throw. Again, be wary of D, Yukikaze, Hotaru. Yukikaze will only lose to throw.

- Okizeme is an rps situation for both sides. Make decisions about how you want to mix them up, and take note of any patterns.

Notes:

- 214ACA route works midscreen.

- Watch out for Hakumen players who end corner combos in 2B. Late teching/not teching is fine.

- Also watch out for j2A > land tk Hotaru reset.

- Corner combo timing is a bit weird for 2C > 214AD > dash out 6A > whatever. Try doing 2c > delay shooting star if possible.

[Heaven]

Its probably just the scrub Hakumen I occasionally play against, but I find 236A (no D) across the screen really psyches him out, and he usually tries to Void it. Anyone know how this works on decent players?

One thing I found funny: Haku yukikaze'd my 236A-D, and I panic dodged it with a gold burst. He was too shocked to do anything afterward.

[excelence]

My friend iad j2c my 236a on reaction... nearly useless tools on this match up imo

[Crosell]

When orb is used he can just poke it. and then you lose out on space control. Its best not to be used.