[/] Slash Johnny Matchup Thread

[Tage*Proto]

Johnny vs. Eddie discuss! Seriously, I'm going to be fighting a lot of eddie's in the near future, and just wondering if y'all could throw out some general tips? Things I should completely be avoiding, openings I should watch for, etc...Thanks.

[CrimsonDisaster]

Johnny vs. Eddie

discuss!

Seriously, I'm going to be fighting a lot of eddie's in the near future, and just wondering if y'all could throw out some general tips? Things I should completely be avoiding, openings I should watch for, etc...Thanks.

mmmmmmmmmmm

I have some random things but I have class and stuff till late tonight so I'll post them later if no one else does.

Upwards Mist Finer is nice though, stops him from flying freely, though most Eddie players should have adjusted by now to the CH while flying thing.

[Tage*Proto]

Awesome, thanks man I appreciate it.

[4r5]

The only good Eddie I've ever fought was Marn's. And I just tried to stay inbetween the two drilling areas and when ever I see a close drill I do DB/coin/lvl2MF. If I ever get locked in rushdown, I mash on back, for random IB/backdash, and 2P/2HS, while being thankful that Little Ed doesn't increase gaurdguage.

[Tage*Proto]

Awesome thanks, although isn't random backdashing pretty dangerous?

[CrimsonDisaster]

Awesome thanks, although isn't random backdashing pretty dangerous?

It is but Johnny's backdash is pretty good so you can use it sometimes... though most Eddie players in the US still use buzzsaw too much, which is dumb but also unbackdashable.

Your normals beat the hell out of Eddie's, so he really needs you to mess up, or he needs to take a lucky guess with like 6P, or he needs to take a fairly significant risk (flying, random drills), or he needs to summon from like fullscreen and go from there.

1) you messing up- don't.

2) lucky 6P- at a good spacing, this shouldn't be a huge issue since you won't get knocked down off it, though he MIGHT get pressure depending on what he does after. Shouldn't happen too often, especially if you're using 2S and coins and such.

3) flying gets raped if you're looking for it. Drills are a bit safer but you can just take care to not be standing on a drill spot... sometimes you can't avoid it, but again this is one of the risks Eddie has to take to beat you, whereas you generally can fight in that space between the drill zones really well AND you can beat the hell out of him at the S drill range as well.

4) summon at fullscreen- ain't much you can do about it, if your opponent has good shadow control and such. Just be thankful that he's going to be using up bar just to get to you, and milk that- Eddie is better than EVERYBODY with the shadow out when properly controlling it, and killing the shadow at neutral tends to mean eating a drill against good Eddies. So just get away from him and let him decide whether he wants to unsummon to preserve bar (and go back to sucking) or if he wants to try to rush you down for as long as he can.

shrug Johnny owns flying so hard though. L1 P MF, jS, jD are all good, 6P at some points... and for whatever reason K and P are good against some of Eddie's jump-ins as well.

[Rift]

hmm, what are some good anti-chip-dash-in techniques? Like redbeard already said, chipp can easily move into and out of Johnny's range. My friend constantly just does quick hit-and-run tactics, and all I really know is 6P when chipp jumps in. Should I really just try to keep up with him, so I'm not on the defensive, or what?

[Tage*Proto]

I palyed a decent chipp pretty recently, and all I can say is that shit is annoying lol. 2hs worked really well for me though, as did 2s. Those moves are Johnny's best interruption techniques, but I still had problems against him... Oh yeah, and thanks CD. That was hella good shit you posted, and worked quite well against the Eddie's I played. Thanks man.

[Rift]

yeah 2s I use sometimes, good for starting up a nice combo. What about ensenga? I haven't used it as an anti air as much as I probably should. Massive priority, is it really practical?

[tj3ssa1]

try to air throw more against chipp, it works pretty well too. especially in the corner since you can get free damaging combo or coin, whichever you prefer. the thing about ensenga is that the recovery time sucks, so if you whiff or it gets blocked, 9 times outta 10 your ass is gettin comboed especially by chipp since he's so quick.

[JOFan]

sup guys, i need some tips against O' pot. i know for this match up one should play keep away with far slash and jump slash but if i got knocked down by him during any time i dunno how to get him off me... ie. he'd trip me then do a j.hs or j.s as oki.. is there any way around it beside FDing hoping that it'll keep him pushed far enough so he has no choice but to use some other normals instead of potbuster? so far the only thing that works for me is dead angle but yea.. i am open to any suggestions :D on another note, against zappa what does one do when he gets the dog or the ghost out? for me i try to sj and throw some dbfrc or hs and see if he get hit. ghost is such a pain compare to the dog now... for dog i try to throw 2 coin for cover when i rush in.. to hit the dog at the same time keep zappa in place for a mixup into throw. but i dunno what i am suppose to do except fd one-frame jump when the dog traps me in the corner. is it better to trade hit and get rid of the dog than to wait it out and possibly use dead angel to punish? thanks,

[4r5]

i need some tips against O' pot.

Stay the fuck away from Potemkin. I like to jump around outside his f.S range, with him a bit outside my j.S or airdash range. Basically 2/3 of the round will be played like this, interrupted by brief periods of HUGE damage. Potemkin wants to try to move in on you and you want to punish him when ever he tries.

As for Pote's jumping oki. Sometimes you gotta block, sometimes you gotta backdash, and sometimes you gotta jump. It's a mixup. It's one of Pote's best mixups. Best thing to do is not get knockeddown in the first place. I save up burst and meter just for when I screwup and get knockeddown. Burst, deadangle, or super my way out. All those are still baitable, but it gives Pote more things to worry about.

Is Zappa doing the DogBite-trap or the RTSD-trap?

[JOFan]

uh.......i dunno what rtsd is but for sure he is doing doggy bite stuff in the corner. thanks for the feedback on the pot matchup. lo how could something as simple as jumpin hs have so much mixup behind it.. scary :D

[CrimsonDisaster]

Urm you can try backdashing the bite so that you at least maybe get to tech after the 6H. shrug

[tj3ssa1]

I was just reading thru this thread for tips against Faust. CrimsonD you said to watch out for Fausts full-screen stab/pull thingy. Johnny's 6P beats that move, afterwards you can MSJH into DB FRC combo because Faust can't tech after CH 6P that low to the ground. If you're really far away you even have time to cancel into mist stance, mist dash, then MSJH to make sure it connects. Any way this improves JO's chances against FA or can FA somehow make this not good? And if Faust does scalpal stab/pull thingy while close up, JO can dash thru it untouched... but that's really dumb cause no Faust would ever do that move up close, just a little something I accidentally found out last night edit: Also 236p beats out bomb-bags... any way this can work in JO's favor? One more thing. Anji's HS Fujin! wtf, it seems like this move beats everything JO has to offer, is there anything that JO can do to stop Anji from doing this stupid thing?

[4r5]

First half of HSfujin startup is invincible to strike. So you can either throw him or hit him in the last half. And then there's, of course, just block it and any of the extensions, then hit him.

[CrimsonDisaster]

6Ping Faust's scalpel pull is nice and all and probably reactionable to a certain extent, but you still have to be WATCHING for it. Given how much other crap Faust can put on the screen, it's pretty hard to split your attention between that and finding ways in. 236P(L1) only stops the bomb bag... which can lead to Faust getting hit anyhow if you did it early enough I guess. At L2, though, it eats the bag AND hits Faust, which is nice if you can spot it. Overall though, Faust puts a ton of stuff out and makes it hard to see what he's doing. Random 6Ps are a bad idea 'cuz they typically mean you get hit in recovery =( I don't think it's a horrible fight, just one you have to approach kinda differently and I don't play enough good Fausts to tell you for sure what works against Faust in general. I just kinda find some way in and hope I didn't lose too much life on the way there.

[Wengan]

Any help against dizzy? especially need help against spammers of fish and the uppercut fire ball. also, anyway i can get out of this set up from dizzy( dizzy knocks jo down in corner. Fish 2k s h 236 s rinse repeat ) i tried many ways to escape but no deal . Is this some kind of crazy block stun undiscovered before?

[4r5]

JH inbetween the HS and the 236S.

http://www.dustloop.com/forums/showthread.php?p=78677&highlight=dizzy#post78677

[Tage*Proto]

I'm having some issues with Sol. Although I think it's due to my fear of being DP'ed, stupid I know, but I feel like before the match starts i'm giving sol the momentum. How do I kick this stupid habit? He just intimidates me really bad for some reason, and then I do the ultimate ultimate mistake by trying something stupid to escape GF FRC pressure stuff. Help?

[RedBeard]

In my opinion, Sol beats Johnny in Slash. Everyone and their mom will disagree with me but I play the match like 30 times a week. He doesn't totally own Johnny or anything but it's in his favor imo. Basically, to try and sum it up and be short: Johnny can do nothing about Sol's "dashing" mindgames. Sol dashes at you, and you need to choose to do some shit, and fast. He can run in VV, he can run in stop and GV, he can run in and 2D(which will beat pretty much every poke Johnny has except his sweep at MAX range. Good luck timing that), or he can dash jump in if you attempt to do a ground poke. He can also just FD stop to test you. Or dash in with Gunflame FRC. Or a myriad of things. You're not given much time to react to what he's doing, and guessing wrong means he gets in on you for free. Then, IMO, the match basically goes: If Sol gets in on Johnny, he owns him. Johnny has close to nil he can do to safely escape Sol's pressure. It's all risky. Sol can pretty much safely run all over Johnny. Johnny, on the flipside, has to be extremely careful pressuring Sol. One fuckup means one RC VV and half your life gone. All it takes is you doing ANY poke. Sol doesn't need to outsmart you. He gambles 50/50 on his VV(you either did something or you did nothing and you blocked it), and even if you guess right and block it he starts HIS pressure on you. Sol is the epitome of a momentum character. He has a BIT of trouble getting in on Johnny. It's often exaggerated though. Sol has a fast dash which forces Johnny to make a decision, and fast, and it's a guessing game. Johnny doesn't just magically "cover all the angles" as people put it. He either guesses a jump, an FD stop, a running VV, Dashing BB, or a dashing poke like 2D. It's a guess, and Johnny does not have 1 simple answer to all of these things. He has to answer them with very specific pokes. Guess wrong, and Sol gets in on you, where he owns Johnny. You need to guess quick. The one big thing in Johnny's favor is that he dishes out more damage per combo. Problem being that Johnny's combos are both a bit more situational and you're far more likely to fuck them up. Whereas Sol just needs to do some dial-a-combo air combo and knock you down into his mixup. So if you guess right, Sol is likely to eat some huge damage as long as you dont screw it up. Sol has an easier time blocking bursts than Johnny. I mean Johnny is a good burst blocker naturally, but like half of Sol's pokes block bursts automatically. Basically Sol has a VERY easy time turning a match around. You can be whupping his ass, and he lands 1 VV and you might wind up losing. He's a total momentum character, and he has solid 50/50 mixups which are hard to block. Johnny just does big damage but the match isn't as "safe" as it is for Sol. The one obstacle Sol has to overcome is getting in on you. It's often exaggerated how tough that is for Sol though. Just my opinion. Pretty much everyone and their mother disagrees with me but I've played the matchup like 1,000 times, and I've yet to find solid tactics to "counter" Sol. The best advice I can really give is that if you DO outguess your opponent, like you block his VV, you need to be ready to dish out maximum damage for every mistake he makes. Edit: Other small bonus for Johnny: Normals VVs don't work on him. CH VVs cause knockdown, but Johnny can backtech a normal VV hit. It leaves him in the air though, where he kinda doesn't want to be. I had other stuff in Johnny's favor but I forgot

[Tage*Proto]

I agree completely with everything you just said . I absolutely HATE the feeling of having to guess what Sol is going to do when he's on the OTHER side of the screen. He can catch me that quick with something stupid and do a LOT of damage. Thanks anyway Redbeard, I'll see if I can try and guess correctly more often . Question though: I block a gatling from sol, he does gunflame. I coin over the gunflame. He eats coin, I eat gunflame. Good or bad trade? This is without a FRC on the gunflame.

[kenmastersX]

Question though: I block a gatling from sol, he does gunflame. I coin over the gunflame. He eats coin, I eat gunflame. Good or bad trade?

This is without a FRC on the gunflame.

If it's without an FRC, it's okay if you back tech immediately, I think? You get level two mf over his missed combo opportunity. If you don't recover you'll eat his mindgames on wakeup, given your lack of wakeup options.

[CrimsonDisaster]

Neutral tech VVs. If he doesn't do the followup, you recover at advantage next to Sol. If he does the followup, it whiffs, you get a free CH into death (and if you wait a bit, it becomes a free CH on a CROUCHING Sol). This is old news ;(

[RedBeard]

Neutral tech VVs. If he doesn't do the followup, you recover at advantage next to Sol. If he does the followup, it whiffs, you get a free CH into death (and if you wait a bit, it becomes a free CH on a CROUCHING Sol). This is old news ;(

Problem being that most VVs are counter hits and depending on momentum Johnny's punishes are more limited. Also RCing it ruins that(and is an amazing use of 50% tension). Still great about Johnny but blah.

Also I thought you could only backtech the followup if they time it properly? If they do the followup on the first frame doesnt it hit you unless you backtech? I could be mistaken.